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43rdrecce

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Everything posted by 43rdrecce

  1. Apparently used in some numbers after the war by the GPO in London. I never could find one despite some serious efforts when I was collecting Lewis Guns and the associated kit. Very nice item! Cheers Paul
  2. As far as I know the pattern without the bib had been dropped by the start of WW1. They were termed 'grey ordinary' and the flannel used was of a cheaper type. Once the war started a standard pattern was adopted. The RACF did produce a lot of the issue clothing but there were other manufacturers involved particularly for items such as shirts which tended to be made by specialist firms. Add to this that prior to WW1 and for a short time after the war started, the purchasing of TF uniforms equipment and insignia etc was organised and paid for by the County TF Associations. Inevitably there was variation in the patterns and some private firms like Hobsons and Mills Equipment Co did very well for themselves providing Gucci variations of service dress and equipment. Some of the wealthier TF associations like the TF Battalions of the London Regiment for instance, spent a lot of money with some of these companies. In some instances these Battalions continued these arrangements once the war had started despite the best efforts of the War Office to stop the practice on grounds of economy. It's worth remembering that such TF Battalions were only 'adopted' by the War Office after volunteering for active service. Some seemed to carry on as if they were private concerns! This led to some wierd and wonderful kit in the early days, particularly equipment and insignia. I have a series of original letters from the QM of the Queens Westminster Rifles ordering large numbers of embroidered 'QWR' shoulder titles from Hobsons. This continued from late 1915 until the end of the war even though the Battalion was in France and officially under WO control. In other words they had a completely private supply chain of their own financed by the Battalion and friends at home. As regards the shirts, there was variation in buttons but most seem to have been tinplate. The other thing to remember is that many of these shirts were civilianised after the war and worn by working men, which is why they are so hard to find today. An added complication is that grey flannel shirts were made for the civvy market as well. Unless they have the military bib front it's difficult to be certain of origin unless they are marked in some way. TF kit would not have government ownership markings as it was in effect privately owned. Cheers Paul
  3. It seems earlier shirts were also grey flannel (but not silver-grey though) and may go back to the 1860s or earlier, so Zulu would be correct. Way out of my period of interest. It would be intriguing to find out when grey shirts were first worn in the British army though! Cheers Paul
  4. Not sure of the earlier history as my interest starts with WW1. I believe the use of silver-grey flannel dates to 1899, so the use of greyback shirts in Zulu may not be strictly correct, but as I say out of period for me. The pattern of shirts we are talking about here date originally to October 1900 ie silver-grey flannel the bluey grey shade you mention. The use of the other grey shade dates from 1904 when the pattern was slightly amended. Both shades were subsequently used without any significance. The neckbands were white at this stage and the buttons zinc plated tinplate. the next change was in October 1907 when the standard pattern used throughout WW1 was introduced. The length was increased and the size range increased from 5 sizes to 9. The pointed 'rifle' cuff was added to this pattern in minor changes in 1908 when both greys were amended again. It seems that the ordinary grey shirt did not have the bib front and maye have been a cheaper version for the Territorial Force, TF, as it then was. The next change came in August 1914 when the blue and white cotton ticking was authorised for the neckband. A simplified pattern was introduced in 1915, mainly changes to the cut and the amount of material used in order to save resources. The final change was in October 1917 when the cuff reverted to the plain pre 1907 style. Other colours were introduced from 1914/15 natural cream coloured flannel was authorised and even black and striped flannel were used, those these were much less common. The shirts then remained unchanged until the 1930s when they were replaced by the khaki version. This was a more closely fitting shirt, though still roomy by modern standards, the sleeves in particular being more closely fitting. Of course these did not have the bib front either. Hope this is of interest. Cheers Paul
  5. Had a look at my notes and found that WW1 shirts were issued in sizes 1 to 9. Never seen a size 9 WW2 example but it seems there may have been such a size which was probably a 48-50 chest or thereabouts. Shirts were always made roomy of course! Cheers Paul
  6. The largest size marking I've seen/had is size 8. This was about a 46-48" chest and probably a 16-16.5" collar. I have a size 8 in the late war collar attached issue and these normally have a small white label at the neck. I have also seen the late war type size stamped in ink on the neck band of the collar. I believe the same sizing system was also used on the earlier greyback shirts. I have a WW1 example pre Oct 1917 (pointed cuffs) and that is a large size. I will check the sizing just to be sure of my facts!! Cheers Paul
  7. The idea that the winter version would be worn in summer or was even intended as such seems a little unlikely as anyone who has worn one would probably agree with. They are warm bits of kit! Lots of photos exist of the denim tank suit being worn pre and during the invasion. I can't say I've seen the oversuit in any photos dated before the autumn of 44. 43rd Recce received theirs in December, in the wartime papers of a 43rd veteran I have he states that A sqn were issued them on 7th December. Prior to that most men wore battledress with a greatcoat and sometimes a leather jerkin over that. I also have many photos showing denim overalls being worn over serge battledress in 43rd Recce. I am fairly sure that even the denim tank suits were a relatively late issue to 43rd Recce. It may well be that as infantry div recce units they may have lower in the pecking order than cavalry units and armoured divisions, but this certainly seems to have been the case at least for the 43rd. Does anyone have any dated photos showing these worn before the autumn of 44? Cheers Paul
  8. Thanks Clive, very interesting. I have also seen these nets (whatever the origin, French, Belgian etc) in plain green, without the disruptive pattern. Regards Paul
  9. Clive, What date is the document you posted? I have one of these nets in the 25 x 12 size. I'd always assumed they were French or Belgian, though the label is missing from mine. They are similar to the British early WW2 shrimp net though. Regards Paul
  10. I have a copy of the 'What a twit' booklet. I won't be able to access it until the weekend but I can scan the relevant section for you then, unless someone else can do it sooner. Cheers Paul
  11. No it's a P17 and perfectly correct for HG issue. Dad's Army was generally very accurate as regards uniform and equipment. They even used 37 pattern bino pouches as look alike HG pouches, which were obviously not available in quantity at the time. At least they made an effort which is more than can be said for many TV and film productions. The bayonet was right too. P17 in use by HG below Cheers Paul
  12. Definitely an RM issue Arctic sling. I have the issue chit for mine which show the following NSN CN-1005-99-962-5382 Sling, Arctic, SLR I also have (no NSN shown) Donnington, Muzzle Cover, Arctic, SLR, Lanyard, Muzzle Cover , SLR Cheers Paul ps too long to be a standard rifle sling and definitely way too long for an SMG
  13. I think it's the arctic sling for the L1A1. I've got one somewhere along with the rubber muzzle cover and securing lanyard. Later versions were in a crappy nylon webbing. Fittings always seem to be rusty on these too, mine is the same! Cheers Paul
  14. Hmmm.....so the implication is that the item is wrong then??? I find the idea of that a bit laughable mate. This was a scabby £5 quid liner in 1983, by my reckoning it's a scabby £20 liner now, so I'm not sure what your point is. When I acquired this gear (all of it pre 1985ish, I didn't bother after that) there was absolutely no interest whatsoever in DPM. Nobody wanted it other than to wear it on a building site or fishing. The idea that anyone would fake something like that in the 1980s is a bit of a non starter! As I said in a previous post, I bought a lot of stuff from returning FI vets. My brother had been down there and many of his mates sold and gave me stuff. I can't recall paying more than £15-20 for any of it and most of it was buckshee. At that time I was a serious WW1 collector (and still have most of it) and found the 'war souvenir' stuff that was turning up in junk shops, which we still had in those fantastic pre ebay days, and collectors markets very interesting and considerably cheaper than WW1 kit. At the start of the 80s WW1 kit started to shoot up in price and the FI stuff was a cheap and then easy to find alternative distraction. I started to buy and scrounge mainly Argie kit but then complimentary items of British kit. The proviso was that it had either been worn down south, or at the very least issued for use down there. I picked up some pretty amazing and historic items in the process. I was very friendly with a senior researcher at the Imperial War Museum, a fellow WW1 collector, who knew that I had amassed a large collection of FI related kit and when the museum put together its 10th anniversary exhibition in 1992, I was asked to lend a lot of items for display. As an aside the IWM had made absolutely no effort in obtaining good original items from the conflict other than odd things like Prince Andrew's gloves or Mrs T's besk blotter etc etc, something they repeated to a slightly lesser extent after Gulf 1. They were desperate to obtain representative items for the display and I worked with the designers to set up the exhibits. The IWM specially commissioned some manequins for the Argie kit and I kept those at the end of the exhibition. When it was all over, I decided that I didn't want the bulk of the kit back and flogged it to them for around 4K, which gives you an idea of the amount of material involved. It included bullet holed items from GH, a data panel from a cluster bomb dropped in the first air raid on Stanley and other such historical gems. I retained some of the Argie SF and conscript kit. I also still have some 'celebrity' kit from people such as Alfredo Astiz and Lt. Col Piaggi, Santa Fe officers etc and some very Good Argie SF stuff. I also have some Brit celebrity kit in addition. Anyway, that is a long digression, back to the liner. This has only recently been taken from a box last opened in 1992, the only time it had actually left the box since then. So I can assure you it is a genuine item. It is not for sale. I posted it for interests sake and to find out a little more about it. I have seen these liners in more than one photograph from the conflict and I have feeling that there is a photo of somebody wearing one in one of those 'Observer Big Bumper Fun Annual of the Falklands' type books published in 1982. Can't remember the unit but almost certain it was not RAF. There were some pretty strange things happening then. Blacks and Millets supplied emergency kit for 5 Brigade in the form of bergans in blue and bottle green I seem to recall, imagine trying to identify one of those babies now?? Unless you are given one by the vet that wore it how would you ever know. They are genuine 'issue' items nonetheless. I don't think a partial NSN list would help there either. Unless someone finds a list that identifies 22F etc as Pants, Lounging, Latex, RAF Officers, then I think we have to accept that this is a pukka item. I would also point out that it is far grottier in real life than in the iphone pics I provided. The label is quite grubby and yellow, the flash has made it look cleaner than it is. It has not been fiddled with in any way, why the hell would anyone bother? Personally I wouldn't even take the lid off the Singer sewing machine for the amount this would make, even downhill with a strong tailwind and Brigadier Julian Thompson wearing it! Cheers Paul
  15. Attached a couple of photos of this odd pattern liner. They can be seen in some Falkland Island photos. All my FI kit was worn down south as all of it was bought from returning vets. That was the criteria for collecting it. I provided a lot of kit for the FI exhibition at the IWM in 1992 (most of it in fact) At the end of the exhibition I decided I didn't want it back, and they bought a lot of it from me. The remaining kit was boxed and remains untouched since then. Not a lot of DPM now (sadly it didn't have a great deal of sgnificance then) though I do have lot of Argentine camo. I bought most of it for beer money as the boys were selling after the novelty wore off!! Cheers Paul
  16. Whilst you are all discussing liners, can anyone tell me about this liner? It is one of the ones with the groovy little corduroy collar and two patch pockets on the lower front. Press stud closure with 5 studs and knitted cuffs. Why the differences? Cheers Paul
  17. For what it's worth..always known as test-cocks on the Great Western Railway/British Railways WR! Regards Paul (Father, Grandfather and Great-Grandfather all drivers on GWR/BR)
  18. Does anyone have any of these crimped on type end tags for 1¼" webbing straps? Failing that can anyone suggest a possible supplier. I've hunted high and low but can't find any. The odd size doesn't help either. They look like this. The one shown here is on a NOS Daimler stowage strap. Used on Daimler stowage straps as built and pre 1950s rebuild/upgrades when they were often replaced by standard Mills type brass end tags. I have the 1¼" Roko quick release buckles but not these strap end fittings. Can anyone assist before I start making the bl-ody things? Cheers Paul
  19. Robin, Thanks for the input. They must be the DPM covers the Gurkhas never used.... Cheers Paul
  20. Hi Enigma, No I'm not Paul G who is our chairman. I spoke to Paul last evening and he is contacting various people today. I will put him in contact with those helping. If you PM your email address I will put you all in direct contact. Regards Paul
  21. Hi Enigma, thank you for flagging this up. As you are probably aware this desecration of war memorials is a huge problem in the UK too. Just picked up this thread. We have passed this sad news on to the 43rd Recce veterans. Sadly some of those intimately involved in the erection of the memorial are no longer with us, Frank Thompson (part of the original patrol) Fred Sylvester an A Squadron man and researcher of this tragic patrol and its story. We will be in touch. Kind regards Paul
  22. Having a rummage again in my unit and found these, 3" diameter fuel filler caps. Repackaging labels for September 1960. No VAOS codes only the long number 2910998346524. Hand written in ink on the top of the box is the number '7203' Anybody recognise them? They might be useful to someone..... Cheers Paul
  23. Ta chaps, I thought they were most likely post war looking at them, so maybe Comet. Definitely not rexine in a Daimler, only Vaumol dear boy..... Cheers Paul
  24. Richard, Thanks for the swift reply. If that is the case I can think of a couple of people who might need them! They were incorrectly fitted to my Daimler turret, the two pads side by side, but the Daimler has a single large pad. Thanks again for the reply. Regards Paul
  25. Part No LV1/LD BC65036 Pad Head Assy Aux Gunners Comp Can anyone enlighten me as to which vehicle this part is for? It is a brown rexine covered pad. I have two of them in nearly new condition. Sadly some plank has attached tape to one of them in the past and it has removed part of the surface finish. Curious as to what vehicle they are intended for. Cheers Paul
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