4x4Founder

Now that I think about this, I seem to recall seeing the same type of wheel used on the License built FWDs on some other trucks.Can't remember which now. Could they've been a commercially available wheel rather than something proprietary from FWD (who preferred to build as much as possible in house).

Remember, he has a license built Model B with the cast spoke wheels, versus the solid disc wheels. That could be the difference. I wonder if the spokers are lighter than the discs?

Ran across an old print in my files of a machine shop truck so I am posting it here in case it might be of use. The image is from 1918 and that's about all the context there is on it. I found it as I looking for some sort of an instruction manual for the machine shop I may once have had. It's on one 20 year old inventory of stuff but I don't find it now. I'll keep looking. PS- Accidentally loaded the ammo body pic but decided to leave it for grins.

So it's a Kissel license-built truck? In looking at lots of old pics, a license-built truck is more likely to have the spoked cast wheels. You do also have to account for the possibility they were changed at some point. Amazing that it never was repainted in a civvy color. I'll bet it has a verrryy eeeeeeeennnteresting history. I've only personally seen one more unaltered original, and it was a truck that went from military use to a Hollywood film studio lot before being sold to private buyer.

I've always found the modifications/upgrades a vintage vehicle acquires over a long life interesting in themselves. For example, an FWD Model B as it was issued in 1917 vs the same model in 1925 with pneumatic tires, electric start, lights, etc. Since you can't run down to the local truck parts store to pick up a new part, certain compromises must often be made on the originality front but I am in awe when I see a restorer who stops at almost nothing to make a truck as close to 100 percent accurate as his time and effort can make it. Just had a tour of a much more modern MV where the owner use ONLY NOS part used at the exact timeframe the restoration was designed to portray. Pedantic? Certainly, but delightfully pedantic... admirably pedantic.

I guess the debate isn't really about whether screws or nails are "better," it's about how the original seat box was constructed and is the reproduction a faithful or typical representation of it. I am not knowledgeable enough to have an opinion either way. I got a lecture from a noted pre-standardized jeep restorer yesterday about reproducing what you find on the vehicle versus researching and reproducing what you find in period pictures or other documentation. His point is that decades... or nearly a century in this case... down the road, what remains on the vehicle today (old as it may be) might not be totally original. This is probably a "like... DUH... Jim!" moment to most of you, and to me, but it's one of those things that bears repeating once in a while to keep us on track.

Tony, In the late '80 and '90s I was a Land Rover dealer tech (England trained) and later worked for Land Rover North America as an off-road driving instructor. Interacted with a lot of Brits and thought I had you guys figured out. Guess not! ( : < ) In the course of my LR career, I had to go back to Jolly-Old (Solihull or Eastnor Castle) for training. At one one such event, we were in a pub in Solihull and some of the younger single guys were whooping it up a bit and dancing with the local lasses. One of the gals was particularly energetic on the dance floor and one of our guys tried to complement her by saying, " Wow, you sure are spu*nky tonite!" He got a roundhouse slap for his trouble. After his head cleared, we explained the language. He tried to apologize but she wouldn't let him within 10 feet, eventually left, and probably curses Americans to this day. Obligatory HMV content: Having driven some of these old trucks, those women must have been some pretty tough broads to have handled the likes of a FWD-B or a Nash Quad. A 4WS Quad on solid rubber is a double armful. In their early days, FWD had a female test driver, Mildred Sawyer IIRC, that was often seen in early advertising. Given her slight stature, I wonder if it wasn't a bit of an advertising put-on. I drove an FWD-B about 20 miles over dirt roads in Colorado. I was young and tough but still felt it after. I tested a Nash Quad for a Four Wheeler story back in the '90s and couldn't believe how hard it was to steer on pavement.

Forgive my denseness... might be the distance across the pond... but I don't get the remark. I get the politicians part.... they succeeded with you and they re trying with us. "Go off?" That's the part I don't get.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! PS- The middle woman does seem to be the one with a bit of experience. At least she has the right stance. Plus, hang one's eyes open is conducive to hitting the target. IIRC, the PO7 was not equipped with "set-n-fergit" homing bullets. BTW, thanks for that PO7 reference. Didn't know that little tidbit and researching it led to a very enjoyable hour. Upon the conclusion of that, I went out and loaded about 50 rounds for my 1892 Webley Mark I. Been on a load development program for that old piece and it is nearing the end. Shooting better than it ever has in the 45 years I've owned it.

Congratulations! What an honor to have such a milestone vehicle in your possession. It appears you have done your duty in maintaining it at the level of care such a milestone deserves and shared it with others so the history isn't lost. A big HMV salute to you, sir!

No joy, sorry. There were three FWD-Bs on the trip, all three listed as cargo trucks. Just in case any of these turn up, they had the following serial numbers/motor numbers/USA Reg numbers: 8175/9979/415766, 13325/21426/415768 and 8044/9371/415767. The heavy repair/machine shop trucks appear to be Liberty Bs or Macks, though it appears there some Dodges listed as "2-passenger" or "light delivery" that might have been light repair trucks. Seems to me I have seen a pic off a light repair truck on the run. Only one other 4x4 was on the trip, a Militor artillery tractor with a winch and, with all the 4x2s, it was often used on the trip.

I have the serial numbers of the trucks on that 1919 Trans Continental and if you send me yours, I'll check it against the list. I went along on the reenactment a few years back and there were two period rigs that went the whole trip, a 1918 Dodge Staff car and a FWD-B. Both were western rigs. Neither was one of the originals. The Dodge drove the trip because it had sufficient speed. The FWD was trailered. A couple of other period rigs showed up along the way, including a Quad.

Fantastic! Do you have any history on it? Does anyone know if those style wheels were unique to the Kissel clones? Both times I have seen them, they were on Kissels.

Which is strange, because the Quad was the first time a manufacture started development of a 4x4 truck with a list from the Army on what it wanted. Also, how many of them left there were US Army versus those sold to France? Overall, I think the FWD Model B was a better truck but, at this time, FWD was not very accommodating in making changes to their trucks for military service and that may have led to Jeffery being able to make sales inroads.

So what's it like driving a SMV (Slow Moving Vehicle) in Britain? Are the drivers there as intolerant as they are here? Of course, when I'm doing it, it's in a tractor. Boring, ordinary. I would guess bad-natured people are a little more bemused at an antique truck versus a tractor. I'm also curious as to what the rules are about driving vehicles like that? Are there restrictions where you can go? Special licenses, etc? Decades ago, I worked for Land Rover North America and had to go to Britain for training. The first time I flew into Gatwick, I was taken ashore, jet lagged as heck, and required to hop into a Discovery and tow a 25 foot caravan to an off-road event a hundred miles away. My sphincter didn't loosen up until a week later. What a way to break into driving on the "wrong" side of the road. I always figured it was a bit of a test.

We call 'em "pole barns" even if they are not exactly true to that original definition. They come as kits and you can buy them from some of the local "big box" home improvement stores for DIY construction (delivery to site included in price!) or you can hire a construction outfit to do it or build one from scratch. Bare bones, they are quite inexpensive. That is a really nice FWD. Looks pretty complete. Hard to tell where it is. The ubiquitous American blue tarp might be a clue. For some reason, I don't see them often in pics from the other side of the pond. Not hideously rusty which suggests a relatively dry climate but who knows. Wish it was in my barn. Rather it that the John Deere combine that is giving me fits at the moment.

Sweeeeeeet! What's next?

There is a small group of people I put in the category of "give 'em a pile of rust flakes and they can make a truck." You are there!

Well ain't that neat! Did he donate or sell? Major kudos if the former!

It pretty amazing that any of this stuff has survived. Thanks to all for posting!

A bit "over-restored" but very nice. How it ended up in Yugoslavia would be an interesting story. I saw a '63 Chevy in the background too, which would be another interesting story!

Great story. Pity it was better preserved after the initial recovery. Anyone else remember the guy that salvaged WWI vehicles from a sunken (torpedoed) freighter in the 1920s. What I recal is that he had an assmbly line on the recovery ship that stripped them down right away, cleaned them up and reassembled them. IIRC, they were mostly Model-T Fords.

Don't know. I haven't seen much on the Southern Convoy. Haven't looked actually.

Yeah, he also says that "perhaps" many as 150 were built but I can pretty much shoot that down. That was the original desired amount but the war ended and the contract was cancelled long before they went into serious production. One preprod was sent to France and did see time at the front under test, according to several sources (including the Congressional record).

I have seen the same American Munitions material but there are other documents, which I do not have the time to cite in all or detail, which place doubt on the 75 number. These include 1921 Congressional appropriation hearings where the expenditures for these trucks are called into question and the numbers cited by the officers called in for grilling put the number much lower. And there are other citations. Also the citation in the American Munitions documentof two Militors being used on the Transcontinental Convoy is incorrect. Lt. E.R. Jackson's 30 page, October 1919 report on the Transcontinental Convoy for the Tank, Tractor and Trailer Division of the Ordnance Department has a list of all the vehicles used, including serial numbers, as well as reports on their performance. Only one Militor is listed (on page 8) and it's the artillery tractor version and is serial number 6 with motor number AU955. I would also refer you to the recent book, American Road by Pete Davies (a Brit, oddly enough!) on the Convoy and his coverage of that single Militor as the "hero" of the convoy is effusive. The Militor Corp was a company run by a man named Sinclair. It was formed for the sole purpose of building these trucks for the war and the implications were that it was done under some shady circumstances (lack of competitive bidding, new company with no track record, etc.), hence some harsh Congressional commentary. I've read a lot of the Congressional record (yawn) and, frankly, it appears to be more of a witch hunt than something based on fact, but I was mainly reading it to mine information about the trucks. Tough reading! It's clear the Ordnance Branch really wanted the Militor, though, even into the 1920s Another document, With the Motors by Lt. Bryant, is an account of Artillery maneuver in 1923 where 11 Militors were used to transport a battery of 240mm howitzers in a loop around the Ft Bragg, NC, area. Anyway, it remains unproven whether those desired 75 units were actually built. One thing I remember from the Congressional Record is that they ordered a whole bunch of tires for Militors they didn't have and they were a special size that didn't fit anything else! I'd have to go back and dig into my note to verify but I remember being pretty sure that up to 25 were produced. Just couldn't prove that 75 number. The Militor wasn't a technical marvel. There was nothing new or whizbang in it. It was merely an assemblage of off-the-shelf parts or parts designs that better met army requirements. One of the reasons it existed at all was FWD's intransigence (thanks to the stubborn Walter Olen) in building a truck that more closely met army requirements. FWD (Olen) thought they knew "better" what everyone needed, so they were somewhat unwilling to alter their designs to suit military (or anyone else's) requirements (I have a great story about them being involved in the Jeep story). We all know the US Army wasn't/isn't always "dead on target" or reasonable with their requirements either, so at times it boils down to proverbial monkey with a football and FWD likely knew that. Being a successful company with lots of orders, FWD simply declined to provide the football. Still, FWD could have easily built a more suitable truck meeting the same standards and delivering the same performance as the Militor... but they didn't. In essence the Militor was part Latil, part FWD, part Nash Quad and part Walter in it's design and construction. It was patterned mostly after the Latil, whose performance it more or less matched. It's a fascinating truck! timerover51: You said the 1st Div. Museum is restoring a Liberty B and the implication of your statement is that it was a proven Transcontinental Convoy truck. True?