Tranter

A bit of an update on this sight. What I thought was a wing nut to attach an earth braid for the sight illumination to was in fact incorrect. When loosened it slackens off a clamp in the mortise allowing the dial sight to be removed from the mount. At the bottom of the dial sight, once removed, a battery box was revealed. This appears to take a none standard dry cell just a bit thinner than an AAA battery. On the top of the sight is a spring loaded push button that when held in would illuminate the graticule & the micrometers. It also would illuminate a blue light positioned above the front glass on the sight head. To date, apart from enquiring on this site I have asked Royal Armouries at Fort Nelson if they can throw any light on it, but they drew a blank. I also approached the RA Historical Trust who in turn have passed it on to the RA Museum. I’ve not had any response from them yet. Another avenue has been the tank museum as there’s a faint possibility the sight may have been developed for tank use in an ad hoc Artillery role if required. This would be in the same vein as the Royal Marines Centaur tanks that were fitted with No11 Dial sights to fulfil this role on D Day.

Hi Clive, thanks for your info! This is an odd one to be sure, it bears no similarities to any of the MK’s of No7’s whatsoever. It appears to be conceptually entirely different. This certainly wouldn’t fit any standard artillery piece that was/has been in service. It appears to never have been taken into service as it doesn’t carry a broad arrow at all. To produce the sight & it’s mount as a single unit is something I haven’t seen, as indeed is the idea that the layer would need to be facing the gun & not facing forward. This is borne out by the sight clinometer being directly in front of the layer actually on the mount. I thought it might be an experimental unit for the Garrinton gun, but seems a lot different.

This Dial Sight is a complete mystery as to what gun it was designed for. The head is marked: D.S.. EXP No 7 R & J BECK LTD LONDON It folds together to sit in its fully fitted oak case. The case is stamped faintly on the lid No1 & various components are similarly marked. Looking at the layout of the sight & mount & the position of the sight clinometer it appears that the layer is positioned on the left of the gun facing in towards the breech/barrel rather than the conventional forward facing position. The clinometer dated 1944 is a conventional MK IV Sight clinometer on which the scale has been recessed & modified to read elevation only (10 - 50 degrees), hence no provision for depression. The large slipping scale micrometer is loosened by using a clamp & the main slipping scale under the head by a knurled ring above it. All scales are in degrees. There are ‘open’ sights on the right hand side of the head, but these are enclosed by glass covers front & back. On the ‘layer’ side of the sight there are two light fittings encompassed in a ‘Y’ shaped housing. The mount is secured to the gun using a clamp. The view through the eyepiece is perfect with simple cross hairs. many of the bolts have hex heads which leads me to believe it’s post WWII. R & J Beck we’re in business until 1968, so it’s prior to that. Also, it has to be prior to the RA adopting mils. Whatever way you look at it this is a very unconventional sight! I have a lot of research to do on this which I suspect will take some time. If anyone can provide any information or thoughts about it I’d be very grateful. As of today I have no idea, but I love researching one off experimental artillery optics. I think this will be a challenge similar to the FV3802 sight carrier I researched earlier this year.

Great! Look forward to hearing from you Damien! Cheers Steve

Hi Damien Have a look on Facebook for me. My pic is of me standing in front of a Sherman tank as there’s more than one person with my name. Send me a friend request & then I can get you on messenger to keep in touch! Glad you’re happy with The No3! cheers Steve

Hi Damian, I knew the Australians converted & used captured Rblf sights, but I’ve never seen one, so thank you very much for the photos! I love the conversion stamping on the head. It certainly made sense to utilise captured kit. It’s interesting that the original hook arrangement at the base was also changed to fit the sight carrier. I imagine the whole conversion must have been a bit of a job with the Rblf being built using metric measurements! As you say though, a useful conversion until the Australian No7 was produced. Using them as DP sights for training was a good use of resources too! Cheers Steve

I’d really appreciate you letting me know if you hear of any No 1 or No 2 directors anywhere. They are certainly not common things to find! Yes, the No 8 dial sight certainly has characteristics of the No 10. One of those would be a great find if one ever crops up. Yes Zeiss of London certainly made a batch of No7’s & Vickers actually made copies of the German Rblf. I saw one of those & kicked myself for not getting it! Until I got my No3 I’d also assumed the dovetail would be straight as per the No4 director head so I was surprised to see the tapered dovetail as well! The eBay ad has about three days left to run by the way. Cheers steve

That’s a great photo, it’s probably the only one I’ve seen with a No3 on it’s tripod. I’ve never seen a tripod come up anywhere. They just don’t seem to be out there! My No3 is still on eBay by the way, here’s a photo of the front page. Just copy the title in & it’ll come up. Cheers Steve

I actually have a nice complete fairly minty Ross made No3 in my collection (see photos below). The more complete No3 in my previous message is actually on eBay as I decided to let it go as I’ve got the complete one I’ve mentioned so I don’t really need it. I’m still looking for a good No1 Director & a No2 as well. (Exceptionally hard to find!). The other thing Im after, again without success is a very early No8 dial sight by Newton & Wright of London. Although I know they exist in very small numbers I’ve never found one. Cheers, Steve.

Thanks Bob, I’ll try that!

Does anyone have, or know anyone who has any spare parts for British WWI No3 directors? Anything considered! My more pressing needs are for the following: Complete optics including the bubble/elevation scale unit complete optics without the bubble/elevation unit elevation locking pin & chain. Circular spirit level unit (with 3 screw holes) Leather case box compass with correct mounts also any No2 Director parts, particularly eyepiece unit etc. Thanks!

I’m trying to find out about another mystery I own item if anyone can help! It’s a cased WW2 1943 dated Optical Protractor, made by Glass Developments Ltd (Ross) used as a bore sight for tanks or maybe SPG’s? The optics are marked to the front lens retaining ring MG BORE SIGHT No 1008 DRG No 8680 next to the ROSS company logo. The instrument is affixed to a heavy micro adjustable base with three machined steel feet to allow the instrument to be set up on the reference plate (flat) of a tanks main gun/machine gun or maybe even an SPG? The base has a brass manufacturers plate stamped OPTICAL PROTRACTOR MADE BY GLASS DEVELOPMENTS LTD DRAWING No BA116-6C. The rotating base comprises of the lower part of a director No9. stamped DIRECTOR No9 MK1 MSC 1943 No96. It’s all contained in its original wooden carry case with webbing strap. In good condition with clear optics and working adjustments etc. An interesting instrument using No 9 Director components originally used for indirect fire use with the Vickers machine Gun. It’s unclear whether this instrument was meant to be used on its base with the steel feet or whether the feet were in fact studs to locate into something horizontally which would then permit the user to look down through the eyepiece easily & more conveniently. The only broad arrows are on the case hinges, there is no O.S. number or anything else that would indicate government ownership. I have never seen one of these before. It’s interesting to see that it was a director No9, officially repurposed & modified to perform a different role. Glass Developments were formed in 1938 becoming a limited company in 1944. They were based in London (Brixton). In 1994 the company was liquidated. In their time they made all manner of items from glass buttons to optical instruments.

That’s a very unusual dial sight. I see what you mean about the way it mounts. I’m not familiar with Newton & Wright at all. I’d love to find one! Thank you for your kind comments regarding my research. It’s still ongoing so if I find any more info I’ll post it on here. I agree there has to be a list of all MK’s, variations & modifications somewhere. The LoC’s seem a bit scant and patchy. When I first received the carrier I fully expected to find an O.S. number, but no such luck!

Thanks for your input. I’ve been over the sight carrier with a fine tooth comb & found absolutely nothing regarding maker/serial number/production number etc. It must have been made as a prototype in an Ordnance factory as you suggest. There certainly are some oddities in Brit Artillery optics. You mention the No 10 & although on this carrier the sight bracket is basically the standard bracket it won’t take a No10 as the circular rotational eyepiece part impedes on it. I can therefore only assume it was for the No9. (Much too late for the No7! The No8 is interesting, as well, I haven’t ever seen one! I’ve written my findings on my carrier. It’s a bit long winded but may be of interest. I’m still attempting to get more info on the No2 clinometer.

I now know the periscope is a No25 MK II.

Out of curiosity I bought this metal case at the last Malvern show. I am somewhat confused about it! It’s marked ‘ Case Peri Attachment Director MK I’. For the life of me I can’t get my head around why you’d need a periscope on a director to be honest. It’s dated 1940 & made by SGC & is broad arrow marked. If it turned out it did fit a Director for whatever reason, which one? If anyone has any information/photos of the actual periscope that’d be great!

Does anyone have a No25 Mk II periscope that they’d be prepared to sell please?

Hi Guys, I've recently acquired an FV158378 monocular telescope along with its periscope mount. Does anyone know which periscope it fits? Someone has suggested it’s from the Centurion but I can’t find out how true that is. I found a grainy photo of the telescope/mount & periscope, but the label on the periscope is too fuzzy to make anything out. I know the periscope has a curved (arced) protrusion on either side that the grooves in the telescope mount slide in to lower/raise the telescope to the bottom glass of the periscope. I’ve seen these telescopes described as observation scopes, but I’m not sure that’s right. I also suspect these telescopes weren't confined to just the Centurion & were possibly used on a multitude of AFV’s. any help with this greatly appreciated!

Hi Guys, I've recently acquired an FV158378 monocular telescope along with its periscope mount. Does anyone know which periscope it fits? Someone has suggested it’s from the Centurion but I can’t find out how true that is. I found a grainy photo of the telescope/mount & periscope, but the label on the periscope is too fuzzy to make anything out. I know the periscope has a curved (arced) protrusion on either side that the grooves in the telescope mount slide in to lower/raise the telescope to the bottom glass of the periscope. I’ve seen these telescopes described as observation scopes, but I’m not sure that’s right. I also suspect these telescopes weren't confined to just the Centurion & were possibly used on a multitude of AFV’s. any help with this greatly appreciated!

Excellent! Thank you Rob, very helpful!

I made a start restoring the 25 Pdr Tool Box I pick up at the Malvern show last weekend. I’ve found stencilling under the first layer of paint. I can make some of it out, but if anyone can help with the missing characters that would be really helpful! The top line says: ‘TOOLS 25 PR’ The second line: ‘PT No CN??? I’m not sure whether the top line should include MK1 at the end.

This is a ‘gauge’ according to its NSN ( 1430-99-192-7201) & was used on the Swingfire anti tank missile system. The labels would indicate it was held by V Troop, M Battery, 3 RHA when they were located in Dortmund (West Riding Barracks) sometime around 1977. I’m not sure yet of its specific use or whether it was a piece of test/calibration equipment used by theIr REME LAD or whether it had an operational purpose in the field. Are there any ex Swingfire people on here who can enlighten me as to its use/purpose etc?

A bit more information: The case was made by Grundy Ltd of Teddington (now defunct). It’s stencilled as such on the lid. Also, the case is stencilled No31 D/S Carrier. I can find no reference anywhere to this designation. The method of mounting the case is the same as the later 25 Pdr Steel No 9 dial sight case. If the sight carrier is in fact for the FV3802 it would have been mounted on the barbette in a similar manner to the way the No9 dial sight case attached to the standard 25 Pdr shield, (The FV3802 probably stored the dial sight in the same way). I further suspect that the wooden inserts in the case were to house a field clinometer. The only one that fits is the No 2 MK I as shown below. The first photo below shows the FV3802 with what seems to be the standard 25 Pdr muzzle brake, but a totally different recoil arrangement to standard pieces. I have researched the registration 09 BB 53 & it is the only recorded FV3802 registration, which pretty much confirms only one prototype ever made.

I have included some photos to my post as a picture paints a thousand words!

I have a very interesting 25 Pdr sight carrier that I’m trying to identify. My belief is that it may have been the prototype carrier for the ill fated FV3802. It is very different to the Probert range cone/laying/sighting system employed on all other 25 Pdr variations, including towed or self propelled. It has no markings or broad arrow but is clearly marked as 25 Pdr. The carrier is attached by a large wing nut arrangement to the mount & the same method is used to keep the carrier in its special to type case. I’m sure also that it had a light fitting as the cable is still present. This makes me suspect SPG, running the light from the vehicle electrics. The open sight is on a spring loaded hinge which is pushed down when fitted to the gun to extend the foresight, but pulled back when returned to its case. The A/S & TE scales are in degrees & yards, so predates later mils systems/conversions etc. I checked the Garrington gun as I thought it may have been from that, but it’s definitely not. There appears to be nothing else that fits the bill except the 1950’s prototype FV3802 based on a shortened Centurion tank (5 road wheels plus sprocket & idler as opposed to 6). I have been unable to find a photo showing the inside of the barbette unfortunately. If I could, this would confirm my suspicions or allow me to rule it out. If anyone has any information or thoughts I’d be very interested to hear what they have to say!