Tarland

On 12/28/2023 at 5:40 PM, Mark Ellis said:

There's a number of Prototype vehicles that have been given to these "Civilian" military museums, and volunteers have caused more harm than good. 

The Stalwart went through 3 changes before they settled on the production marine propulsion design. I'd wondered if the round bits were inside the rectangular outlets. 
I'll see if someone can pop over and get some close up photos of the vehicle.

Perhaps @wally dugan has something on the development of the FV437.

I'd presumed that the rectangular box around the top was part of a shallow crew area. The winch comes out the front right at the bottom, so not sure where the winch is housed, but the REME 432 had a winch in the middle of the personnel area

 

Stalwart PV2, with the outlet on the side of the hull

 

Prototype Revised Water deflector board trial vehicle - 02SP43 at Beverly

 

02SP43 at Aldershot museum, after a volunteer apparently removed "the wrong" splashboard

Stolly footage courtesy of Mr Hewes on Youtube - apparently these are away to be restored

2 hours ago, 10FM68 said:

It certainly could be, couldn't it?  Perhaps the Australians trialled one or two.  I rather think, though, that this photo isn't about the carrier itself, but about the team.  I see they have everything on display: the Bren, the mortar, the ammunition, of course and, presumably, at the far right, the 6Pdr itself.  I suppose the critical question is when the Australians stopped wearing SD.  Do you think that is an officer on the right?  I would have expected him to be wearing officers' SD were that the case.  Could he merely be the driver with the Corporal the Section Commander on the left of the photo?

My mistake - it could be the  driver with the SMG - I was thinking that the senior NCO would be armed with the SMG

The SD was definitely gone by '65/66 with the Vietnam deployment. The FAL was in use by that point and the heavy barrel version replaced the Bren as the section LMG.

Maybe the Oxford carriers end up back in Australia after the Korean war......

Its worth noting that the link to the photo in Google maps also has a lot of pictures of the exhibits at the Armor museum at the former Puckapunyal armour centre.........

Could it be the Puckapunyal training area in Australia......??

See a recent photo from google maps

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Puckapunyal+VIC+3662,+Australia/@-36.9976498,145.0262172,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipNhJaa5Ug_nPyNNr9Z0IEvkHKOsHM8m4ZZv4sAU!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNhJaa5Ug_nPyNNr9Z0IEvkHKOsHM8m4ZZv4sAU%3Dw203-h152-k-no!7i3648!8i2736!4m7!3m6!1s0x6ad787f46b64d9ad:0x40579a430a08270!8m2!3d-36.9961769!4d145.0272127!10e5!16zL20vMGJmOXB5?entry=ttu#

Wikipedia mentions that the range was the training centre for the National Service recruits in the 1950's and 60's. NS service personnel might not be as smart as a demonstration team.....

The trees and hills definitely feel Australian. The officers SMG certainly could be a Owen. These were still in use in the late 60's with the Australian deployment to Vietnam.

On 12/30/2023 at 10:54 AM, wally dugan said:

After a bit more digging l would like to add the following P1 was number W4 and numbered 06 EB 04 and was transferred to SEME  on the 27/7/68 P2 was number W3 and  renumbered  06 EB 03 and transferred to RMSC  SHRIVENAM on the 8/9/69  W2 06 EB 02 was first sent to the RAC CENTRE BOVINGTON on the 6/4/67 and transferred to REME APPRENTICE SCHOOL ARBORFIELD on the 3/12 71 last         06 EB 01 was sent to 10  AVD date not published  It would appear that more FV 421 were built  than FV 437 There is a lot more to the story of the FV 400 series than you may first think and it began as early as 1950

Wally, do we know how many of the 431 load carriers were built?

We know that FV437 06 EB 01 is converted from one of these vehicles. There is a load carrier photographed as a range target in Rob Griffins Pen and Sword book on the FV430 series (not a great publication - has the feel of being thrown together on a Friday afternoon). Theres no visible/legible markings on the photos.

From the Chatham photos the FV437 at the RE museum is definitely built from a load carrier given the spacing of the wheel stations. So is this 06 EB 01 heavily modified/stripped of its original fittings....?

On 12/30/2023 at 7:20 PM, 10FM68 said:

And the M113 1/2 is registered 50BT05 in Aug - Oct 1966 so, presumably, was with FVRDE long enough to be registered and under trials 2 years later than the Horsea Island tests of June 64.

Same vehicle in the Littlefield collection?? - results of the 2014 Auction

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14/the-littlefield-collection/lots/r0005-fmc-armored-command-recon-vehicle-lynx/574232

You can just make out the reg number and it does look like it ends 05...... (it also doesnt have the commanders cupola so would match up with the FVDRE photos)

Also a prototype M113-1/2?

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14/the-littlefield-collection/lots/r0073-fmc-armored-command-recon-vehicle-lynx/574516

Prototype M113 IFV's

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14/the-littlefield-collection/lots/r0045-aifv-dsid-0001-prototype/574184

https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/lc14/the-littlefield-collection/lots/r0047-aifv-demo-1-prototype/574490

@wally dugan when were the M113's at the FVDRE??

The Australians put Saladin turrets on M113's in Vietnam in 1971 - see Paul Handels website http://anzacsteel.hobbyvista.com/Armoured Vehicles/m113a1fsvph_1.htm

The saladin turret was later replaced by the scorpion equivalent - I wonder if this was before the FVDRE work with the vehicle shown.....

20 hours ago, fv1609 said:

That was a good video although it didn't have time to mention some criticisms from the FVRDE report.

1. Vibrations from 6 inch pitch track link and the engine and track noises were high.

2. Only one external fire handle on the left hand side of vehicle & no portable small extinguishers on the outside.

3. Excellent vision through periscopes was nullified by absence of any wipers.

4. Servicing of wheel hubs was difficult. The filler caps were hard to remove & oil hole was very small.

5. There was no ventilation equipment.

A general criticism of the vehicle concept was that for the number of crew (3) & the armament, the vehicle was larger & heavier than it need be.

The propulsive efficiency of the FV430 is substantially better than the FMC. Although the FV430 was considerably inferior to FMC & M113 when going astern taking some time to pick up way & very limited manoeuvrability.

The field of the IR night vision was 26 degrees the British requirement was 40 degrees minimum was 'essential' but 55 degrees was 'desirable'. The field of IR illumination was downgraded by 20% due to the illumination from 100W bulbs to overcome this 240W would be required.

Radio interference 30-60 Mc/s averaged 35 dB above 1 microvolt that exceeded the acceptable level of 8 dB.

26th October 1965

 

Clive, thanks for this. Whats the title/document number of this report?

Is the FVDRE wading photo above from the report??

Obviously the author of the report had a liking for the Ferret when it came down to the size. I'll have to go and see how the CVRT compares size wise

On 12/28/2023 at 4:28 PM, Tarland said:

The bar is spring loaded and runs up a ramp to secure. Theres a slot on the back plate of the block the that the pin engages with with the T shape pin end..

I'll get a couple more pics

The number on the pin is FV599055

orientated as per the film

Locking detent

Rear retainer plate slot relative to detent

Cable Retaining pin locked in position - bar has to be depressed to unlock and extract the pin

1/4 turn engages pin into retainer plate -  view on the "back" of the block

23 minutes ago, Tarland said:

Yes it is the 113-1/2

Bovington video on their Canadian Lynx

1 hour ago, Mark Ellis said:

Isn't that the M113 1/2, that's in the Mudlark film? 

Yes it is the 113-1/2

The New Zealand connection

https://contractormag.co.nz/classic-machines/vickers/vr180-vigor-vikon/

3 hours ago, wally dugan said:

After a bit more digging l would like to add the following P1 was number W4 and numbered 06 EB 04 and was transferred to SEME  on the 27/7/68 P2 was number W3 and  renumbered  06 EB 03 and transferred to RMSC  SHRIVENAM on the 8/9/69  W2 06 EB 02 was first sent to the RAC CENTRE BOVINGTON on the 6/4/67 and transferred to REME APPRENTICE SCHOOL ARBORFIELD on the 3/12 71 last         06 EB 01 was sent to 10  AVD date not published  It would appear that more FV 421 were built  than FV 437 There is a lot more to the story of the FV 400 series than you may first think and it began as early as 1950

Wally, thanks for this. What is 10 AVD?

6 hours ago, andym said:

I know, I've been hunting for Abbot training films. 😞

Andy

National Lottery Heritage fund application......one of the categories

Anyone got experience of making an application???https://www.heritagefund.org.uk/print/pdf/node/110955

Mark,

Agreed - there could be more than one prototype.

The square hydro - jets in the film stills definitely look like Dowty units with the "clam shell" doors for directing the water.

The RE museum vehicle has nozzle outlets which are much more like the unit on a jet ski. I think these would have had to had larger protective boxes. The rear of the RE vehicle looks very bare (its missing a buoyancy unit where the rear door would have been) and theres no evidence of attachment points.

A quick search on FV437 on the IWM web page lists another film of the amphibious trials of the FV437 and Scorpion at Instow - unfortunately its just the catalogue entry and no film has been digitised.....

Mark, Looking at the Chatham photos and the film stills I would say the outlets have been changed - square to round.

I'm presuming the power pack must have been moved to the crew compartment - the trunking extension looks to be where the circular crew hatch would normally be. I assume that this is protecting the pack air intakes and radiators . Exhaust arrangement is completely different from the regular FV430 series.

The bar is spring loaded and runs up a ramp to secure. Theres a slot on the back plate of the block the that the pin engages with with the T shape pin end..

I'll get a couple more pics

The number on the pin is FV599055

Thought this was worth posting in the Tracked Vehicles section

Credit to @Mark Ellis as he's posted the IWM link in relation to mobility trials with the Stalwart. Op Mudlark was a series of trials with UK and US vehicles in Thailand in 1966

The full film is at https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060035249

Worth a look

- you can see why the Aussies selected the M113 over FV432 for their APC requirement

- FV437 Pathfinder footage - the FV430 series answer to the FV180 Combat engineer tractor

- The FMC 113-1/2 or Lynx looked pretty capable so no wonder the US army didn't select it. They got the GM M114 instead and that was another story of inept/suspect procurement....

If anyone has more info on the FV437 it would be worth posting. Not much about it online. I think the prototype is in the RE Museum Chatham based on one grainy photo from Instagram.

Mark,

Please see attached pics of an alloy snatch block that bears some resemblence to the stills from the OP Mudlark film

The block itself has several coats of paint so nothing visible on the body but the securing pin has an FV number on it - Maybe @wally dugan @Richard Farrant could shed some light.

The certification tag states SWL of 16 Tonnes

17 hours ago, eddy8men said:

hi mike

it's been a busy year. i sold all my cents and spares to joe hewes of youtube fame. couple of 43's went to ukraine and i bought 3 humvees for a future project.

i've still got the covenanter, 2 carriers, dingo, marmon herrington armoured car , vickers dutchman project and a buried cromwell (to dig up) but all that is on hold while i focus on the humvees

Rick, I thought I recognised the Mk5 gun test bed on Mr Hewes video..............

17 hours ago, Mark Ellis said:

Can anyone please tell me which European country this uniform is?

It's around 1962 / 63.

Thanks

I don't think the still and the video are connected. The video is definitely set somewhere in scandinavia - theres a Swedish or Danish pennant on the patrol boat. Theres also Sam Browne belts worn by the observers - our vaguely south american friends in the still don't have a Sam Browne in sight.

Portugese maybe - I don't think we selling military hardware to the Franco goverment in the 60's......

Reactivating this thread...

This list is on the MRW Precision engineering website

On the XMOD website 076 is listed as a CVRT part - is this correct?? (May 2023). According to the thread above CVRT is Type C

Is there a definitive list anywhere (REME documentation??)

30 RM was also known as 30 Assault Unit which was the intelligence gathering unit Ian Fleming was involved with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._30_Commando

Aye, at least Ronnie's stories had an end to them/punchline.............

The Greyhound wasn't used in NW Europe.

56 Recce Regt used them in Italy and as the Recce Corps was disbanded in 1946 I doubt they saw any post war service.

Bill Bellamy's book Troop Leader mentions Chaffee's replacing Stuarts in the 8th King Hussars Recce troop (Bellamy commanded one at the end of the war. 8th Hussars operated Cromwells in the Sabre squadrons). The typical recce platoon was 8 - 10 vehicles (RAC regiments had a 10 Sherman recce platoon)

Don't know when the Chaffee was withdrawn from BAOR service.

Given the British army received 302 Chaffees and the Stuarts were considered obsolete in 1944 I doubt manner Stuarts survived intact

Just now, Tarland said:

M60 - no M2 in the cupola.....http://www.military-today.com/tanks/m60_patton_l9.jpg