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CharlieC -- LL24FFR


CharlieC

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Hi Everyone

 

Being a semi retired Golf Widow another tatty Land Rover to improve seemed a good plan so just bought Lightweight previously 43-KC-80 which is closely related to Monty Don's vehicle being a 1984 series 3.

Over 50 years and 13 Land Rovers of which 2 were LL from MVS in Fradley I'm now faced with 24v and underfloor MK4 Generator Panel which was quite unexpected and does not work.

 

So seeking advice!

 

Cheers

 

CharlieC

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For simplicity and low cost adapt with a alternater powering each battery , I suppose you could use a pair of ACR type Lucas 12 volt alternators , or the better Presolite equiv. or whatever. Should be possible to work out a scheme for Vee belts / pulleys (you don't need the 8 blade fan) - mount one alternator at normal 12 volt position (remove Jockey pulley) , the other at the FFR genny platform or use a high level alternator mounting kit (this is higher up to the normal 12 volt alt. position).

 

In any case for road work such as a single 16ACR with a split-charge relay (as used for leasure battery) min. work and leave much in situ. , FFR's on full strength are for a Unitary Radio Kit. Obviously a matched pair (purchased together) for starting batteries - best.

 

btw. split charge diodes available & better than relays , to get & maintain batteries at high voltage float - then you need ' battery sensing alternators if using a pair.

Edited by ruxy
spelin
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A 12 volt Lightweight would have a Lucas 16ACR but with twin vee belt drive (8 blade fan kit) , a 16 ACR should cope OK on a single belt . FFR drives the water pump and same 8-blade fan using just a single V belt.

 

You should be able to mount a 16ACR (34A) with twin pulley to use same belt system as FFR , of course you could fit a bigger ACR as they are smaller than a 24 v genny. In Lucas terms 17ACR = 36A , 18ACR = 43A , 20ACR = 66A

 

Something like this :-

 

https://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/35636/charging-24v-battery-with-12v-alternator-and-isolator

 

Have a look on boating forums as lots of electronic charging panels available now.

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It's very good to get so many suggestions to my question thanks all.

 

The trouble shooting suggestion is best for originality but I don't have the knowledge to test the alternator as there are dire warnings of running the engine with no connection to the battery so if I remove the plug at the engine end to apply a multimeter it would not be good? I feel sure the Generator MK4 transistorised is the root of the problem but its inaccessible under the floor to check if relay is stuck or what ever.

 

Changing the Alternator to 12 volt to charge the 24volt system per the wiring diagram sent to me is something I did not know was a possibility -- very interesting.

 

Finally my Monster FV1068364 alternator reconditioned for MOD and intended to charge the 24volt Batteries on a Defender FFR is sitting looking at me on the garage floor - this would fit instead of my FV760740 on the bracket and use the same pulley. The connections Batt 1 and Batt 2 are supposed to be connected to the positive terminals of each 12v battery according to one diagram I have seen. But I have never seen or heard of this being done??

 

Thanks again for your ideas.

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The Lightweight FFR main harness is more or less identical to the 12 volt harness. The FFR Lucas DZS4 distributor cap is easily converted for 12 volt wires & caps - this is often done with 24 volt retained to use cheap 12 volt plugs instead of shielded. The main decision is change of starter motor , wiper motor , mod. to heater fan , change bulbs etc. Waste of time if you intend to restore to FFR.

 

btw - I have L'wt FFR's - 44KC11 & 44KC42 & they are staying as intended.

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The trouble shooting suggestion is best for originality but I don't have the knowledge to test the alternator as there are dire warnings of running the engine with no connection to the battery so if I remove the plug at the engine end to apply a multimeter it would not be good?.
If you were trying to measure the voltage output it would not work because when you remove the connector you will remove the voltage to the field winding.

 

I feel sure the Generator MK4 transistorised is the root of the problem
Why?
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Thanks for pointing this out which shows that I do not understand the principles.

 

In terms of Why I think the panel is duff there is no output even for the ignition light coming from the yellow wire off the panel to a bullet connector in the Shunt Box. Also it looks like someone has had the cover off and I guess I would just like to bypass it and am still wondering if a Defender FFR radio battery generator which is in working order and has its own regulator built in would be fine on my Lightweight or if there is some reason why it should not be tried?

 

If you were trying to measure the voltage output it would not work because when you remove the connector you will remove the voltage to the field winding.

 

Why?

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I understand what you are saying. That yellow wire provides the earth return for the ignition warning light that is powered by the supply to the coil so that it illuminates when the engine is not running. It should extinguish when the voltage from the yellow wire matches that of the supply from the ignition supply with the engine running.

 

Although with the engine running you have no voltage reading on that yellow wire that comes from the Gen Panel. But this does not necessarily indicate the Gen Panel itself is at fault it could be a problem in the Generator or the interconnecting cables.

 

With the ignition on but engine not running does the bulb illuminate?

 

You say the Gen Panel does not work, is that based on the fact that there is no voltage (when running) on the yellow wire or do you have absolutely no increase in voltage on the batteries when you rev.

 

Someone having been inside the Gen Panel might be a bad thing because they have meddled/bodged or it may simply mean they had a problem & simply peered in saw no dramatic fault then closed it up again.

 

You may derive some satisfaction from removing the original system as it is being a pain & it is your vehicle so you can do whatever you feel you need to do, but thinking about the value of the vehicle long-term, modifications particularly electrical ones can be a real turn-off for a potential buyer as originality brings an enhanced value particularly FFR vehicles like this that are becoming increasingly rare in their original configuration.

 

Your profile doesn't give your location but if you are near me, I could run a few basic tests for you if you like.

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Thanks for pointing this out which shows that I do not understand the principles.

 

In terms of Why I think the panel is duff there is no output even for the ignition light coming from the yellow wire off the panel to a bullet connector in the Shunt Box. Also it looks like someone has had the cover off and I guess I would just like to bypass it and am still wondering if a Defender FFR radio battery generator which is in working order and has its own regulator built in would be fine on my Lightweight or if there is some reason why it should not be tried?

 

QUOTE.

 

- and am still wondering if a Defender FFR radio battery generator which is in working order and has its own regulator built in would be fine on my Lightweight or if there is some reason why it should not be tried?

 

Anything is possible , however IMHO , 'not worth the candle' , this equates to a 'Concours d'Elagance' Classic of the 1960's with first of line alternator having a separate regulator/rectifier unit , the unit or alternator packs up . Permanent repair - obtain serviceable unit or repair. Temp. repair - use a modern alternator with a integral rectifier pack , do it well and you could leave the original unit / wiring in place such that a 'rivet-counter' could not tell = acceptable permanent solution. If early 'in-period' alternator was unobtanium , then a same size modern frame alternator could be used with the rectifier pack stripped out. No different to bolting on a 'dynator' with factory fitted other parts retained for show appearance . Esp. as the residual value of the Defender spec. FFR alternator could be totally lost.

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It would have been fantastic for you to run some checks but Staffordshire is a long way from you.

 

The ignition light only works by connecting the wire separated from the yellow lead directly to a battery.

 

Over the last two years I have been restoring a 15 year standing under a tree series 3 to useable condition now sold and having previously owned 2 Lightweights directly ex MOD thought restoring this one which I rescued from being converted to V8 should not be a problem. The owner told me it was not charging but it has two new batteries fully charged to make it driveable even has MOT until September 8. The plan is to change to galv. chassis but the 24v system is an issue I had not counted on or understand.

 

Is it possible that running it without charging is the same as not being connected to the batteries which will ruin the generator?

 

I will get a voltmeter to check if there is any charge but feel there is not and let you know.

 

I understand what you are saying. That yellow wire provides the earth return for the ignition warning light that is powered by the supply to the coil so that it illuminates when the engine is not running. It should extinguish when the voltage from the yellow wire matches that of the supply from the ignition supply with the engine running.

 

Although with the engine running you have no voltage reading on that yellow wire that comes from the Gen Panel. But this does not necessarily indicate the Gen Panel itself is at fault it could be a problem in the Generator or the interconnecting cables.

 

With the ignition on but engine not running does the bulb illuminate?

 

You say the Gen Panel does not work, is that based on the fact that there is no voltage (when running) on the yellow wire or do you have absolutely no increase in voltage on the batteries when you rev.

 

Someone having been inside the Gen Panel might be a bad thing because they have meddled/bodged or it may simply mean they had a problem & simply peered in saw no dramatic fault then closed it up again.

 

You may derive some satisfaction from removing the original system as it is being a pain & it is your vehicle so you can do whatever you feel you need to do, but thinking about the value of the vehicle long-term, modifications particularly electrical ones can be a real turn-off for a potential buyer as originality brings an enhanced value particularly FFR vehicles like this that are becoming increasingly rare in their original configuration.

 

Your profile doesn't give your location but if you are near me, I could run a few basic tests for you if you like.

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The ignition light only works by connecting the wire separated from the yellow lead directly to a battery.
I assume that is with the ignition switched off & you are applying +ve volts to the bulb where the yellow lead would have been attached. It should only illuminate if the contact breaker happens to be closed.

 

If you still have it connected like that when you switch on the ignition, the bulb should extinguish.

 

The reason that I am making a fuss about the warning light circuit is that it has two functions. One is the reassurance that the bulb glowing & then extinguishing shows output has come from the generator.

 

The other more important function is that at switch-on it supplies via the bulb the +ve supply to the field winding to create a magnetic field. For practical purposes, unlike a dynamo, an alternator has no residual magnetism so this has to come from the field winding. When the alternator is running the auxiliary diodes supply this voltage, but at start up the field winding has to be "tickled" by an existing supply.

 

Once the alternator is producing output for the vehicle/radios via one set of diodes (2 x 3), the auxiliary diodes (1 x 3) supply the field winding the voltage produced matches the voltage supplied to the bulb from the ignition supply. As there is no longer a "potential difference" the bulb extinguishes & the performance of the tickling circuit falls away.

 

This leads me to a further question, the Generator No.10 should be a Mk 3, ideally a late version of it, earlier Mks have auxiliary diodes that are not up to the job as they have an increased role with the transistorised regulator. I have seen mismatched generators & panel that seem to work, but it is pushing your luck to use a generator of type with under-rated diodes.

 

Is it possible that running it without charging is the same as not being connected to the batteries which will ruin the generator?
Probably not but it would depend where the fault was.
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It would have been fantastic for you to run some checks but Staffordshire is a long way from you.

 

The ignition light only works by connecting the wire separated from the yellow lead directly to a battery.

 

Over the last two years I have been restoring a 15 year standing under a tree series 3 to useable condition now sold and having previously owned 2 Lightweights directly ex MOD thought restoring this one which I rescued from being converted to V8 should not be a problem. The owner told me it was not charging but it has two new batteries fully charged to make it driveable even has MOT until September 8. The plan is to change to galv. chassis but the 24v system is an issue I had not counted on or understand.

 

Is it possible that running it without charging is the same as not being connected to the batteries which will ruin the generator?

 

I will get a voltmeter to check if there is any charge but feel there is not and let you know.

 

===========

 

QUOTE - thought restoring this one which I rescued from being converted to V8 should not be a problem. The owner told me it was not charging but it has two new batteries fully charged to make it driveable even has MOT until September 8. The plan is to change to galv. chassis but the 24v system is an issue I had not counted on or understand.

 

 

----

 

So - the engine is a V8 , can you show a photograph of the engine bay - I fear a jury rig and therefore have doubts about the drive belt(s) , lack of traction grip - then you will have generating problems as soon as you start to load up.

 

I doubt if the hand-throttle is connected up ?

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Hi -- no I bought from a fella who was going to convert to V8 then changed his mind but hadn't worried about 24v set up as he intended to change everything. All looks original with correct Mk3 generator, under floor Mk 4 panel, shunt box with one ammeter etc.

 

QUOTE - thought restoring this one which I rescued from being converted to V8 should not be a problem. The owner told me it was not charging but it has two new batteries fully charged to make it driveable even has MOT until September 8. The plan is to change to galv. chassis but the 24v system is an issue I had not counted on or understand.

 

 

----

 

So - the engine is a V8 , can you show a photograph of the engine bay - I fear a jury rig and therefore have doubts about the drive belt(s) , lack of traction grip - then you will have generating problems as soon as you start to load up.

 

I doubt if the hand-throttle is connected up ?

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Have now checked that once ignition light brown/yellow wire from shunt box to ignition light is connected to +ve the light stays on with engine ignition switched on or off.

 

Battery voltage is 23.7 engine ignition off falls to 23.3 when engine running at any speed then picks back up to 23.6 when engine stopped. assume starter caused some drain.

 

Looking under the floor at panel the stud at one corner which has earth strap attached is loose so I need to attend to that.

 

Generator is Mk3, There is no serial number but a cross thru' the 1 on the name plate.

 

 

 

 

I assume that is with the ignition switched off & you are applying +ve volts to the bulb where the yellow lead would have been attached. It should only illuminate if the contact breaker happens to be closed.

 

If you still have it connected like that when you switch on the ignition, the bulb should extinguish.

 

The reason that I am making a fuss about the warning light circuit is that it has two functions. One is the reassurance that the bulb glowing & then extinguishing shows output has come from the generator.

 

The other more important function is that at switch-on it supplies via the bulb the +ve supply to the field winding to create a magnetic field. For practical purposes, unlike a dynamo, an alternator has no residual magnetism so this has to come from the field winding. When the alternator is running the auxiliary diodes supply this voltage, but at start up the field winding has to be "tickled" by an existing supply.

 

Once the alternator is producing output for the vehicle/radios via one set of diodes (2 x 3), the auxiliary diodes (1 x 3) supply the field winding the voltage produced matches the voltage supplied to the bulb from the ignition supply. As there is no longer a "potential difference" the bulb extinguishes & the performance of the tickling circuit falls away.

 

This leads me to a further question, the Generator No.10 should be a Mk 3, ideally a late version of it, earlier Mks have auxiliary diodes that are not up to the job as they have an increased role with the transistorised regulator. I have seen mismatched generators & panel that seem to work, but it is pushing your luck to use a generator of type with under-rated diodes.

 

Probably not but it would depend where the fault was.

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OK , so standard FFR set-up. How good are the drive belts ? this is first check. Make certain not so worn and stretched , tensioned up but driving on base of belt. Old hard rubber no good. Cog belts are best. ContiTECH -SF- AVX13 X 1325 or good make equiv. Is the crank pulley & other pulleys rusted ? A quick spray of aerosol belt grip dressing , if voltmeter shows increase - throw the belts away !

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Have now checked that once ignition light brown/yellow wire from shunt box to ignition light is connected to +ve the light stays on with engine ignition switched on or off.
That is very strange because assuming the +ve supply your are feeding to the bulb is the same +ve supply that is going to the ignition switch then the bulb is getting 24v +ve at both ends of it when you switch the ignition on & irrespective of what the contact breaker is doing.

 

Battery voltage is 23.7 engine ignition off falls to 23.3 when engine running at any speed then picks back up to 23.6 when engine stopped. assume starter caused some drain.
Yes & the ignition is drawing 3A appx. Yes so definitely not charging.

 

Generator is Mk3, There is no serial number but a cross thru' the 1 on the name plate.
I think that was just a change in a seal.

 

Looking under the floor at panel the stud at one corner which has earth strap attached is loose so I need to attend to that.
This very very important, the -ve rail from the Generator is not earthed. In earlier Gen Panels -ve was still floating above earth then earthed at the shunt box.

 

However in the Gen Panel Mk 4 the -ve rail is connected to the case earth so it is absolutely crucial that the Gen Panel has a good earth. Whilst it is undergoing testing to reassure yourself that you have a good earth run a stout cable from the Gen Panel direct to the -ve terminal of the earthier battery.

Your problem may be caused just by that! :-D

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Have now removed generator panel cover to tighten the stud having earth wire attached --- no change to no charge. Interior of panel looks very clean with no sign of anything ever being disturbed. No i.d. on cover but it has socket on the side and a white plastic box in the centre which is the regulator module I think. Where would you test to see if there is any generator input?

 

 

Have now checked that once ignition light brown/yellow wire from shunt box to ignition light is connected to +ve the light stays on with engine ignition switched on or off.

 

Battery voltage is 23.7 engine ignition off falls to 23.3 when engine running at any speed then picks back up to 23.6 when engine stopped. assume starter caused some drain.

 

Looking under the floor at panel the stud at one corner which has earth strap attached is loose so I need to attend to that.

 

Generator is Mk3, There is no serial number but a cross thru' the 1 on the name plate.

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OK I will try a cable directly from Negative terminal to generator panel casing and run her up again.

 

That is very strange because assuming the +ve supply your are feeding to the bulb is the same +ve supply that is going to the ignition switch then the bulb is getting 24v +ve at both ends of it when you switch the ignition on & irrespective of what the contact breaker is doing.

 

Yes & the ignition is drawing 3A appx. Yes so definitely not charging.

 

I think that was just a change in a seal.

 

This very very important, the -ve rail from the Generator is not earthed. In earlier Gen Panels -ve was still floating above earth then earthed at the shunt box.

 

However in the Gen Panel Mk 4 the -ve rail is connected to the case earth so it is absolutely crucial that the Gen Panel has a good earth. Whilst it is undergoing testing to reassure yourself that you have a good earth run a stout cable from the Gen Panel direct to the -ve terminal of the earthier battery.

Your problem may be caused just by that! :-D

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Where would you test to see if there is any generator input?

Page 91 of ACU lower diagram

 

+ve lead to T4

-ve lead to Earth.

 

If no reading disconnect connector on Generator. You need to test the field winding in the Generator & its supply. With ignition on you should get a reasonable voltage on pin U & V of the cable connector.

 

If that is ok measure the resistance of pins U & V on the Generator. Should be appx 15 ohms but will fluctuate a bit if you rotate the pulley. If no reading most likely the carbon brushes need to be replaced. Alternatively there was an apparently working Generator on e bay for £20 yesterday.

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Clive

 

Thanks for all your help on this if the generator panel was not under the floor life would be easier.

 

As it is I need to figure out which wire is attached to T4 run the motor with a third party helper, not here at the moment, and then do Generator checks so maybe tomorrow.

 

Thanks Charles.

 

 

Page 91 of ACU lower diagram

 

+ve lead to T4

-ve lead to Earth.

 

If no reading disconnect connector on Generator. You need to test the field winding in the Generator & its supply. With ignition on you should get a reasonable voltage on pin U & V of the cable connector.

 

If that is ok measure the resistance of pins U & V on the Generator. Should be appx 15 ohms but will fluctuate a bit if you rotate the pulley. If no reading most likely the carbon brushes need to be replaced. Alternatively there was an apparently working Generator on e bay for £20 yesterday.

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Thanks for all your help on this if the generator panel was not under the floor life would be easier.

Yes it doesn't seem a very sensible place to put it. Exposed all the wet muck from the ground & then it hampers access to do any testing or maintenance. Although in service I expect it was just pulled off & another fitted, then if it still didn't work the generator or cabling got changed.

 

In the meantime I would do those tests for voltage (ign on & engine off) on the cable connector at the Generator at pins U & V. Then the resistance measurement (ign off) directly on the pins U & V on the Generator.

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Hello Clive

 

Further to this suggestion I could not get any voltage from the disconnected cable or measure the resistance of the Generator but this could be due to my multimeter or not being sure about pin U and V

 

Meanwhile I have bought three new generators albeit Mk2 + 2 MK 4 Generator Panels with cable because they were a package of parts. I have had all three generators professionally bench tested and all perfect but the two Mk 4 Panels are as unknown as the one fitted to the vehicle.

 

On getting home I wired the 'new' generator panel to the shunt box and have 23.7v at connection on right hand side of shunt box cable A. Also connected to existing Mk3 Generator but there is still no charge on running the engine. Nor is there any life from the ignition light. Disconnecting from the Generator I am not finding any power from the shunt box reaching this plugin connector.

 

Next step is to try one of the proven MK2 Generators thru either of these Generator Panels but realise that this will not help the ignition light which is different on the MK2.

 

This reminds me you did suggest checking T4 in the panel. Now that the 'new' panel is on the floor connected to earth via the battery -ve I could take the top off and look for T4.

 

Rgds. Charles

 

 

 

 

 

Yes it doesn't seem a very sensible place to put it. Exposed all the wet muck from the ground & then it hampers access to do any testing or maintenance. Although in service I expect it was just pulled off & another fitted, then if it still didn't work the generator or cabling got changed.

 

In the meantime I would do those tests for voltage (ign on & engine off) on the cable connector at the Generator at pins U & V. Then the resistance measurement (ign off) directly on the pins U & V on the Generator.

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