Jump to content

CharlieC -- LL24FFR


CharlieC

Recommended Posts

Well Charles you've cornered the market on spares! Whatever the package cost you, the generator to generator panel cable is listed as £600, so I imagine you have done alright on the deal.

 

I could not get any voltage from the disconnected cable or measure the resistance of the generator but this could be due to my multimeter or not being sure about pin U and V
This is important to establish that there is voltage coming through the cable from the generator panel to energise the field winding. The resistance measurement on the generator is equally important to establish there is continuity through the field winding & that the brushes are facilitating this.

 

I have had all three generators professionally bench tested and all perfect
That's good news, I wonder how they did that without the generator panel & I hope they tested the output from the auxiliary diodes not just the main output diodes.

 

On getting home I wired the 'new' generator panel to the shunt box and have 23.7v at connection on right hand side of shunt box cable A.
You should be getting that irrespective of whether a generator panel is connected or not.

 

Disconnecting from the Generator I am not finding any power from the shunt box reaching this plugin connector.
There is no connection from shunt box to generator.

 

Next step is to try one of the proven MK2 Generators thru either of these Generator Panels but realise that this will not help the ignition light which is different on the MK2.
It won't effect the ignition warning light. The generator Mk 2 & Mk 3 connections are identical, the outputs are the same except that the auxiliary diodes in the Mk 3 can deliver a higher current than those in a Mk 2. The warning light issue only occurs when using a different generator panel in an installation & shunt box designed for another panel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does 50 quid the lot sound! (these were not known to be Land Rover parts by the vendor).

 

I think they may have only checked the main output but did have the field wiring connected to their control panel. So I now realise what u and v are and checked the resistance on the original generator at 43.7. One of the Mk2s gives a reading of 112 with some buzzing on the meter not present on the original alternator still fitted to the car. Does this indicate it would be worth changing to one of the new generators?

 

Well Charles you've cornered the market on spares! Whatever the package cost you, the generator to generator panel cable is listed as £600, so I imagine you have done alright on the deal.

 

This is important to establish that there is voltage coming through the cable from the generator panel to energise the field winding. The resistance measurement on the generator is equally important to establish there is continuity through the field winding & that the brushes are facilitating this.

 

That's good news, I wonder how they did that without the generator panel & I hope they tested the output from the auxiliary diodes not just the main output diodes.

 

You should be getting that irrespective of whether a generator panel is connected or not.

 

There is no connection from shunt box to generator.

 

It won't effect the ignition warning light. The generator Mk 2 & Mk 3 connections are identical, the outputs are the same except that the auxiliary diodes in the Mk 3 can deliver a higher current than those in a Mk 2. The warning light issue only occurs when using a different generator panel in an installation & shunt box designed for another panel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How does 50 quid the lot sound!
That's the bargain of the century!

 

I think they may have only checked the main output but did have the field wiring connected to their control panel.

That sounds promising, just by energising the field winding & spinning by hand you can see if you get output to some degree. (In fact I have been doing the same to a Generator No.2 - this is a dynamo though with a gearbox & it cannot be spun but by more than half a revolution even that can produce some output)

 

So I now realise what u and v are and checked the resistance on the original generator at 43.7. One of the Mk2s gives a reading of 112 with some buzzing on the meter not present on the original alternator still fitted to the car.
These readings are rather high & should really be 14.5 – 15.5 ohms. Take the average of at least three readings at different rotational points of the spindle. Also slowly rotate the spindle whilst measuring the resistance, if it jumps all over the place then the brushes are worn or there is grot, corrosion, pitting or grooving on the slip rings. High resistance or intermittent contact means a reduced magnetic field so less output, remember on a dynamo the field winding is on the outside but on an alternator the field winding is in the rotating bit (rotor)

 

Does this indicate it would be worth changing to one of the new generators?
Not really unless you can get the resistance down by spinning them for a while to try & shift any grot. If you still get high readings, take the generator with the most consistent readings & remove the end cover & inspect the brushes & slip rings clean or replace as necessary. It is quite easy to access the end, see page 23.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Clive

 

Just been rechecking the U and V field winding connectors on the panel to generator cable with ignition on but there does not seem to be any voltage reading at all?

 

when you refer to page 23 of what please?

 

That's the bargain of the century!

 

That sounds promising, just by energising the field winding & spinning by hand you can see if you get output to some degree. (In fact I have been doing the same to a Generator No.2 - this is a dynamo though with a gearbox & it cannot be spun but by more than half a revolution even that can produce some output)

 

These readings are rather high & should really be 14.5 – 15.5 ohms. Take the average of at least three readings at different rotational points of the spindle. Also slowly rotate the spindle whilst measuring the resistance, if it jumps all over the place then the brushes are worn or there is grot, corrosion, pitting or grooving on the slip rings. High resistance or intermittent contact means a reduced magnetic field so less output, remember on a dynamo the field winding is on the outside but on an alternator the field winding is in the rotating bit (rotor)

 

Not really unless you can get the resistance down by spinning them for a while to try & shift any grot. If you still get high readings, take the generator with the most consistent readings & remove the end cover & inspect the brushes & slip rings clean or replace as necessary. It is quite easy to access the end, see page 23.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just been rechecking the U and V field winding connectors on the panel to generator cable with ignition on but there does not seem to be any voltage reading at all?
You need to do a continuity test for each wire supplying U & V from generator panel to generator.

 

when you refer to page 23 of what please?
See post #2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The last week has been a steep learning curve on 24v Land Rovers and I'm still scratching the surface. Originally knowing that the vehicle would not charge my mindset was switch to 12v or to 24v using a Defender Alternator with built in regulator as I had read about the Mk4 generator panel and thought it very complicated.

 

Unfortunately I did not read your excellent book All Charged Up from the outset which answers so many questions with photographs and diagrams as I did not imagine repairing the existing system.

 

However contributor Roxy and your good self said I should at lease try to get it charging thru the old system to keep it as original as possible for future value and interest in Historic Vehicles.

 

The fact that the ignition light never worked is now critical as the supply from that to the generator panel and thence the Generator Tickles the Alternator to get it to work as I see from your book. One of the white wires from the ignition switch at the fuse box connection has partly cooked so I have directly connected a wire from the fuse box terminal to the back of the charge/ignition light (which still does not work) and thence thru the brown and white wire to the yellow wire in the shunt box which is receiving current when the ignition switch is on.

 

Even with the power to the yellow wire in the shunt box nothing seems to reach the U V pins.

 

I have reconnected the MK4 Panel as was but still nothing at U V so I am wondering what feature in the Generator Panel blocks the current on the out put side?

 

 

 

 

 

You need to do a continuity test for each wire supplying U & V from generator panel to generator.

 

See post #2

Edited by CharlieC
not finished
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes but have you tested the continuity for each wire in the connecting harness supplying U & V from generator panel to generator?

 

The cable is easily damaged internaly or stretched so that wire to pin connections become unreliable.

 

You could temporarily hook up one of your new cables, & see what happens, but first test the U & V continuity in that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because I thought it would be better to have a MK 3 panel on the floor with the top off I have been using the "new cable" looped over the door. Following you advise I took the cable off the panel and checked the connectivity of U and V with a good result. On reassembly still no reading at generator cable terminal posts u and v.

 

I thought this ignition light feed issue could have been the problem all along so have reconnected all the original cables to the shunt panel and tried getting an out put from the Mk 4 Panel under the floor but so far without success --- but I have not checked the original cable for continuity as it is difficult to remove.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes but have you tested the continuity for each wire in the connecting harness supplying U & V from generator panel to generator?

 

The cable is easily damaged internaly or stretched so that wire to pin connections become unreliable.

 

You could temporarily hook up one of your new cables, & see what happens, but first test the U & V continuity in that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

but I have not checked the original cable for continuity as it is difficult to remove.

 

No need to remove it. It is better to test it in situ because a stretched connection or broken wire might seem to recover once the cable is flaccid. Place one prod into the female of the connector (ie generator end), then rig up the other prod to a long wire & connect it to the male connector (ie generator panel end) of the wire under test, if necessary with a small crocodile clip.

 

Also check there is no short-circuiting or even resistance leakage from U or V to earth or between U & V.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK I'll try that -- on my back this time --.

 

When my generators were being tested I noticed they put a shield between the U and V pins to stop any short circuit to the outer ring of the cable socket.

 

 

 

No need to remove it. It is better to test it in situ because a stretched connection or broken wire might seem to recover once the cable is flaccid. Place one prod into the female of the connector (ie generator end), then rig up the other prod to a long wire & connect it to the male connector (ie generator panel end) of the wire under test, if necessary with a small crocodile clip.

 

Also check there is no short-circuiting or even resistance leakage from U or V to earth or between U & V.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally some good news on charging the FFR Lightweight Batteries.

 

This morning I proved the continuity on the spare shunt box cable I acquired this week so decided to look for U V output from the Mk 3 Generator panel acquired this week but found that although the current reached the post inside the box there was no output so maybe it can be repaired by fitting a new resistor as in All Charged Up?

 

Next I connected this cable to the tatty Mk 4 panel also part of this weeks' job lot and was amazed to get out put from U and V. Then removed the lid to see which points were live between the in and out UV connectors.

 

Next I looked under the floor at the vehicle Mk 4 Panel, removed the lid and checked for input from the shunt panel but there was none. Disconnected cable from shunt box to bench test wiring continuity from the yellow charge light connection needed for the exciting of the generator -- no continuity. so cable needs repair.

 

Next hooked up the tatty MK 4 panel to shunt box and then to generator on the vehicle over the door with spare cable, connected ignition light to shunt box and ignition light came on for the first time. Started the engine and got 25.8 to 26 volt charge at battery terminals - fantastic. Strangely after switching the engine off the ignition warning light came back on so don't know why? Also I only ran the engine for 4 or 5 minutes and the Generator got quite Hot near the cable socket is that normal?

 

It seems we are finally making some progress with all Clives' expertise -- Thankyou very much.

 

 

 

 

 

OK I'll try that -- on my back this time --.

 

When my generators were being tested I noticed they put a shield between the U and V pins to stop any short circuit to the outer ring of the cable socket.

Edited by CharlieC
Error
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's excellent news, you must have an unimaginable glow of satisfaction that you could not have expected a week or so ago. I'm sure your appreciation of how charging systems work has come on by leaps & bound, so it really is worth persevering not only increasing your knowledge & experience but maintaining the historic & financial value of the vehicle.

 

I only ran the engine for 4 or 5 minutes and the Generator got quite Hot near the cable socket is that normal?

No it should be no hotter than any cable through which the current is flowing.

 

It suggests:

Dirty contacts on the silver plated pin connectors.

The female pins have got expanded.

There are some dry / failed joints in the soldered wires into the connector pins. They may show ok on a multimeter continuity test but unable to carry a heavy current.

 

It is very unlikely that there are any defective joints to the generator plug inside the generator itself, more likely to be a cable problem as it can be subject to all sorts of trauma. Look at page 35.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your comments, you are probably correct on suspecting the cable -- the elbow is a bit wobbly and suffering from a worn out thread --- hopefully the existing panel to generator cable, which looks better, will prove OK once I have checked the wiring continuity.

 

 

That's excellent news, you must have an unimaginable glow of satisfaction that you could not have expected a week or so ago. I'm sure your appreciation of how charging systems work has come on by leaps & bound, so it really is worth persevering not only increasing your knowledge & experience but maintaining the historic & financial value of the vehicle.

 

 

No it should be no hotter than any cable through which the current is flowing.

 

It suggests:

Dirty contacts on the silver plated pin connectors.

The female pins have got expanded.

There are some dry / failed joints in the soldered wires into the connector pins. They may show ok on a multimeter continuity test but unable to carry a heavy current.

 

It is very unlikely that there are any defective joints to the generator plug inside the generator itself, more likely to be a cable problem as it can be subject to all sorts of trauma. Look at page 35.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The elbow lock ring often gets split , you do see them reinforced with a Jubilee clip. Sometime - I intend using some gauge plate & make a proper spanner , if your braid sheath is undamaged under the tub , best to take photographs of exact position - they often get torn by the prop-shaft.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The strain should be starting to unburden. A new Richards galv. chassis will be a good plan , don't forget IIRC - you need to specify FFR and a late FFR chassis having the brackets to mount the regulator - this late spec. chassis will automatically have the reinforced dumb-irons that originated even earlier abt. 1980

What condition is the rest of the mechanicals , bodywork , upholstery - the normal footwells rot problem , having had two lightweights already - then you will be aware of the ventilator panel fabrication that can rust out.

 

Even if you don't intend getting yourself a 'Unitary Radio Kit' , then obviously if you keep as original - always a good furure proof sales feature - too many L'wt FFR's have been butchered over last 10 years or so , often as one of the variations of 'ringer' for free road tax status.

Edited by ruxy
spelin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I feel better about the Project today and still can't believe my luck in finding an unwanted package of three working generators, two working cables, one working Mk4 Panel and one repairable Mk3 panel this week. This enabled various trial set ups separate from the under floor Mk4 panel and its cables to get a charging result with Clive's help as to what I should be looking for in U V inputs to the Mk3 Generator on the vehicle.

 

What is IIRC ? --- thanks for mentioning I need a late model chassis with mounting points for the Generator we had not thought of that.

 

The rest of the LLFFR has some rusty footwell holes which we will repair once the body is off but the upper bulkhead ventilation panel looks surprisingly good but the steel triangular lower door hinge panels are tatty, the hood is newish, engine is MOD recon seems to run OK and no apparent g/box problems. This is never going to be more than a run about, it has original type Goodyear 6.00 x 16 tyres but these seem hard to find now. MVS had heaps of them at Fradley (Lichfield) when I bought the last two lightweights about 20 years ago.

 

I appreciate your continued support thank you.

 

 

 

 

 

QUOTE=ruxy;495465]The strain should be starting to unburden. A new Richards galv. chassis will be a good plan , don't forget IIRC - you need to specify FFR and a late FFR chassis having the brackets to mount the regulator - this late spec. chassis will automatically have the reinforced dumb-irons that originated even earlier abt. 1980

What condition is the rest of the mechanicals , bodywork , upholstery - the normal footwells rot problem , having had two lightweights already - then you will be aware of the ventilator panel fabrication that can rust out.

 

Even if you don't intend getting yourself a 'Unitary Radio Kit' , then obviously if you keep as original - always a good furure proof sales feature - too many L'wt FFR's have been butchered over last 10 years or so , often as one of the variations of 'ringer' for free road tax status.

Edited by CharlieC
error
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes I feel better about the Project today and still can't believe my luck in finding an unwanted package of three working generators, two working cables, one working Mk4 Panel and one repairable Mk3 panel this week. This enabled various trial set ups separate from the under floor Mk4 panel and its cables to get a charging result with Clive's help as to what I should be looking for in U V inputs to the Mk3 Generator on the vehicle.

 

What is IIRC ? --- thanks for mentioning I need a late model chassis with mounting points for the Generator we had not thought of that.

 

The rest of the LLFFR has some rusty footwell holes which we will repair once the body is off but the upper bulkhead ventilation panel looks surprisingly good but the steel triangular lower door hinge panels are tatty, the hood is newish, engine is MOD recon seems to run OK and no apparent g/box problems. This is never going to be more than a run about, it has original type Goodyear 6.00 x 16 tyres but these seem hard to find now. MVS had heaps of them at Fradley (Lichfield) when I bought the last two lightweights about 20 years ago.

 

I appreciate your continued support thank you.

 

--------

 

IIRC = ABBRV. for 'If I remember / recall correctly'

 

Tyres were normally Goodyear Hi-Miller Extragrip in 6.50x16 , RAF in later years were tending to fit radials - Michelin XCL 6.50R16. 6.50" are now more or less unobtanium.

 

I used to try and get down to Fradley Park every month / 2 month. Purchased several L'wts off them + a few spares (that I should have paid more attention too in retrospect).

 

Did you get the MOD Service Record book(s) off MVS , possibly you had it passed on for this truck ? I think they failed to have the book for just one truck that I purchased.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes the tyres are 16 ax 6.50 Hi Milers not 16 x 6 -- I see there are new alternatives and there may be secondhand wheels at Fairs?

 

No I don't have a military log book with this vehicle and don't recall them from MVS. I gave those Lts to my sons.

 

 

 

Yes I feel better about the Project today and still can't believe my luck in finding an unwanted package of three working generators, two working cables, one working Mk4 Panel and one repairable Mk3 panel this week. This enabled various trial set ups separate from the under floor Mk4 panel and its cables to get a charging result with Clive's help as to what I should be looking for in U V inputs to the Mk3 Generator on the vehicle.

 

What is IIRC ? --- thanks for mentioning I need a late model chassis with mounting points for the Generator we had not thought of that.

 

The rest of the LLFFR has some rusty footwell holes which we will repair once the body is off but the upper bulkhead ventilation panel looks surprisingly good but the steel triangular lower door hinge panels are tatty, the hood is newish, engine is MOD recon seems to run OK and no apparent g/box problems. This is never going to be more than a run about, it has original type Goodyear 6.00 x 16 tyres but these seem hard to find now. MVS had heaps of them at Fradley (Lichfield) when I bought the last two lightweights about 20 years ago.

 

I appreciate your continued support thank you.

 

--------

 

IIRC = ABBRV. for 'If I remember / recall correctly'

 

Tyres were normally Goodyear Hi-Miller Extragrip in 6.50x16 , RAF in later years were tending to fit radials - Michelin XCL 6.50R16. 6.50" are now more or less unobtanium.

 

I used to try and get down to Fradley Park every month / 2 month. Purchased several L'wts off them + a few spares (that I should have paid more attention too in retrospect).

 

Did you get the MOD Service Record book(s) off MVS , possibly you had it passed on for this truck ? I think they failed to have the book for just one truck that I purchased.

Edited by CharlieC
error
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...