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What type of vehicle is that in the background?


LarryH57

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I played around with streetview a bit, but there are so many buildings and trees that block the view. However, I laid the original on this and the peaks seem to line up fairly well, given that different lenses were used on the two cameras.

 

It is on today's Via Vincenzo Grosso, not far from route 6.

 

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Is it possible the original photo was taken a bit further down the hill as there was I think a canal running round the lower part of the town, so it might be that the Valentine was trying to bridge the gap, just like the attempt at putting a Bailey Bridge across it to the left (north) of the original POW photo?

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188889

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Is it possible the original photo was taken a bit further down the hill as there was I think a canal running round the lower part of the town, so it might be that the Valentine was trying to bridge the gap, just like the attempt at putting a Bailey Bridge across it to the left (north) of the original POW photo?

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205188889

That photo has been "flipped". Here it is in the correct orientation, along with the other two for reference. The view in the original POW photo is looking West, so North would be to the right.

 

The relative positions of the mountains and the ruined building in the background surely place all three photos in close proximity to each other (I have just spotted something: might that be the same knocked-out Sherman visible to the right of the Valentine?)

 

As to the present day location, I must confess that I had missed the reference to Route 6; there's a complication in that, in addition to the possibility that the rebuilt road might not follow the exact line of the original, in present day Cassino two streets are designated as route 6; one is Corso della Repubblica (as seen in my first Street View photo) and the other is Via Enrico Nicola, which isn't far away and is pictured below. Surely the location is somewhere in this area? Reading an account of the battle, there are references to Valentine bridgelayers being used to bridge a variety of obstacles, such as shell craters in roads etc. so IMHO there isn't much we can deduce about the location simply from the presence of the Valentine.

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I've been doing a little more digging, using the ruined building in the background as a clue. I think it is the same building as in these three photos (not easy to see in the third, postwar reconstruction photo and the view is in the opposite direction), and that it stood on the corner of Via Gabriele D'Annunzio and Corsa della Repubblica. There appears to be some kind of memorial garden on the site now but I haven't been able to ascertain exact details. If I am correct, that would pinpoint the locations of the photos very accurately.

Now, who can identify the somewhat worse for wear sports car in the second photo?

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Edited by mtskull
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Thank you for your kind comments.

 

I have found another photo on the web, which just about ties everything up.

 

We've come a long way, so to recap, I will refer to the IWM colour photos thus: 3 POWs photo 1; Shell crater & soldier photo 2; Sherman & Bailey bridge photo 3.

 

Points of evidence:

 

1) The IWM caption for Photo 1 refers to the POW's walking along Route 6. Having looked at some battlefield maps, it is clear that this corresponds with the present day Corsa della Repubblica, also known as Via Casalita.

 

2) The same ruined building is visible in photo's 2 & 3 and, I believe in photo 1. Everything in all 3 photos, from the tree-lined road to the relative positions of the mountains, is consistent with them being taken in the same vicinity.

 

3) The same ruined building can be seen in the B & W aerial photo of the destruction (see previous post). The substantial construction and large vaulted arch visible in the ruined interior, suggest a church. The building also appears to have been set back slightly and at an angle to, the adjacent road.

 

4) In the photo of post war reconstruction (see previous post) there can be seen a ruin with points of similarity to the aforementioned building, location as described.

 

5) Here's an aerial reconnaissance photo taken shortly before the major destruction took place. It shows a church in the correct location on Route 6, set back and at an angle to, the road. The road is lined with trees to the south of this location. Comparison with the photo of the ruins shows surviving buildings that are consistent with this being the location.

 

I am convinced that this church is the ruin which can be seen in photos 1, 2 and 3; this would place their location at the bottom right corner of this photo, i.e. within a few metres of the present day junction of Corsa della Repubblica and Via Bari.

 

I would just like to emphasise that, while I am as sure as I can be, my conclusions are not set in stone; there is always room for another pair of eyes to look at, or another mind to consider, or another photo to add to the evidence.

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Edited by mtskull
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Its fascinating to see how this thread has developed!

 

It's a shame Italy isn't as accessible as Normandy, as it would be an interesting place for an MVT tour! We could see where all those D-Day Dodgers spent their time in the sun relaxing and chatting up the local girls while the Army in NW Europe did all the fighting! Actually I worked with a few Italian Campaign veterans and the above was their own sick joke!

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Thank you for your kind comments.

 

1) The IWM caption for Photo 1 refers to the POW's walking along Route 6. Having looked at some battlefield maps, it is clear that this corresponds with the present day Corsa della Repubblica, also known as Via Casalita.

 

 

Is it possible to scan the battle field map in so we can compare with photographs etc.

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Is it possible to scan the battle field map in so we can compare with photographs etc.

With pleasure. There are a number of battlefield maps available but as this is a contemporary military map I consider that it is most likely to be definitive.

BTW, I just spotted a further clue: a stream crossing the road in exactly the right spot to explain the Bailey bridge in photo 3.

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Edited by mtskull
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With pleasure. There are a number of battlefield maps available but as this is a contemporary military map I consider that it is most likely to be definitive.

BTW, I just spotted a further clue: a stream crossing the road in exactly the right spot to explain the Bailey bridge in photo 3.

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Many thanks, just got around to replying

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Not wanting to go too far off topic, but, the 4th picture in post #31 - any guess as to the car? It looks post war.

Certainly the photo is post war; as for the car, it looks to me like a part-completed, fairly crude attempt at building a streamlined body on a pre-war chassis. From what can be seen of the original body, there are points of similarity with the Fiat 508 Balilla Sport but I doubt whether even an afficionado of the marque could say for certain.

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  • 2 years later...

More than two years after this topic first piqued my interest, I’m off to Italy tomorrow for two weeks, including three days in Cassino, during which I hope to investigate further and hopefully stand on the same spot from which the original photo was taken. 

I’ll report back in due course....

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  • 2 weeks later...

OK, here I am in Cassino and I have the final piece of the jigsaw; please be patient and be prepared to refer back to the previously posted photographs and maps. 

Having visited the site, I am in no doubt that the ruined building which can be seen in the contemporary colour photos is the Church of Santa Maria del Carmine, which stood  on the corner of Via Gabriele D'Annunzio and Route 6, which is now named Corsa della Repubblica to the West of this location and Via Casalina to the East. A small memorial garden occupies the spot, where I found the plaque shown in the first photo; this depicts the Church from a viewpoint looking East; the second photo shows a very old drawing, depicting the view looking West.

In 1944 the church was very close to the Eastern limit of the built up area of Cassino; I found another photo which confirms this (church visible lower centre). The fork in the road just to the East of Cassino is obscured in this photo but we know from the contemporary maps that it was there, and that the left fork as you look West, was the line of the old Route 6. From the aerial reconnaissance photo we know that the church stood close to, but not aligned with, this road.

All of which leads me to conclude that my previous conclusion was accurate: i.e. that the location of the original photo of the POW’s and the Valentine bridgelayer is on the present day Via Casalita, a few metres East of the junction with Via Bari.

Post-War development has made it impossible to fully re-create the shot but, for what it is worth, here I am standing on the very same spot as those German prisoners in 1944.

Andy

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Edited by mtskull
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