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Thread: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Dagenham, Essex
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    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    A thought springs to mind - has your control panel and shunt box been moved at any time??

    Mine has the twin ammeters in the dash and when I got it the control panel was moved to the front face of the rear bulkhead behind the drivers seat and the shunt box had been moved to the same side of the bulkhead behind the passenger seat. These are now relocated back into the correct positions in the rear tub. Should be a set of brackets that the control panel goes onto behind the driver whilst the shunt box bolts to the tub side opposite. After moving them back I had some initial problems but by judicious use of terminal cleaner and by tightening connections they were solved.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails battery wiring .jpg  

    Neil.

    Dover Tunnel Team - entry hole plug!

    1959 AEC Militant Mk 1 6x6 GS 16-CL-49
    1973 Series 3 109" FFR 55-FM-58


    19xx UAZ 469


    First HMVF invasion of Overloon - Feb '09
    First owner of an OT-90 at W&P

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  3. #12

    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Hi Guys,

    To reply to Clive : the switch is correctly positionned to High. I will try to clean the regulator contacts. When following the fault finding chart, I remeber that I noticed a difference in the results I obtained when the regulator is open or closed. I supect it odes not really function as it should..... Will check and revert.

    To artistsrifle : my 109 has the 2 ammeters in the dash. The shunt box is behind the driver seat (I have a left handed one) and the control panel is at the back, as shown on your picture. I do not have disctribution box, I guess it was removed.
    I had test the main cables from Generator to Control panel, it looks ok, even If I would prefer to change it if it was not so expensive.

    Will try to make and post some pictures in the next couple of days.

    Cheers
    Jimmy

  4. #13

    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Hi all,

    It seems that the problem does not come from the Control Panel.
    I maanged to get a new one, and the problem of not charging remains the same.
    Looking into the shunt box, I realized that the cabling was not following the drawing in the "Charged Up".
    Made some adjustment but it remain the same, with th eonly difference, that now the charge light doesn't come up any more at all.

    So was just wondering if the problem could really come from the Shunt box on its own ?
    And if the ammeter were faulty ? Would it affect the charging of the batteries ?
    For now the ammeter does move at all.....

    if ant one has an idea......

    Thanks

    Jimmy

  5. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
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    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy60 View Post
    And if the ammeter were faulty ? Would it affect the charging of the batteries ?
    Nope, most of the current flows through the shunts. I think the basic movement of the ammeter is in the order of 500 micro-amps.



    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy60 View Post
    For now the ammeter does move at all.....
    I think that was a typo for "doesn't" you could disconnect the ammeter leads where they come off the shunt & momentarily put a multimeter on the ammeter leads & you should see the ammeter needle move. If not then you have a fault in the ammeter or the leads feeding it. But anyway failure would not be the cause of not charging.
    Clive Elliott

    Always wanted old British Army publications of any period (the older the better) eg AC, ACI, AEMI, AESP, AO, COSA, CP, CR, DCI, EMEC, EMEI, EMER, EMPL, EMPS, ER, ETS, JSP, LoC, LTI, MAOS, MRA, RAOS, REA, VAOS, WMTI, etc, Army & WO Coded publications in paper or fiche.

  6. #15

    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Thanks Clive !

    I will check the Ammeter just to see then.
    Noted that they can't be the cause of the fault.

    So if I try to Sum up where I stand :

    - The Control Panel is ok (I doubt I have 2 faulty ones)
    - The Shunt box may not be the reason of not charging

    So I guess I should look again at the Generator level ?

    The main connexion harness was ok when I tested it. All the pins where ok.
    And I have change the brushes of the Generator as one was broken (spring)


    Any other possibility to check the Generator output other than between the 2 main chokes in the Generator Panel ?

    Cheers

    Jimmy

  7. #16
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    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Jimmy when I said put the multimeter on the disconnected ammeter leads I should have said on Ohms just to give the ammeter a little stimulus.

    The Generator Panels are they all the same Mk? If so which Mk?

    How did you check the main harness? With a multimeter on ohms? Continuity may be verified but with dry joints passing a minimal current from the multimeter it could be quite different when amps are drawn across such joints. I had I think 3 dry joints in the connector cable that plug into the generator. The pictures show soldered ends of wire sitting loosely in the connector pins but no longer soldered. This connector is prone to tugging damage especially if yours is an earlier installation with the connector fitted on the top of the generator. It would be best to check integrity of these connections by direct inspection & lightly tugging each wire.

    Also when testing the continuity of individual wires make sure there is no continuity or leakage to other wires in the harness or the outer sheath. I have seen this happen when the harness has been crushed & then unsquashed so it looks innocent enough.


    Make sure the is no sign of bogeys or corrosion on the heatsinks, these should be well painted to make them waterproof to resist short circuiting to the case, either during immersion or subsequent corrosion.

    Establish that you get the prescribed resistance across U-V on the generator with the cable disconnected in all rotations of the shaft. With everything connected see what voltage you get off U-V in the panel. This is your field winding & of course without a decent magnetic field you won't get a proper output. (The output is regulated by field voltage being adjusted in proportion to the output)

    The chokes (ah so you must have a Mk 3) are the best place to monitor generator output as the generator -ve line is not earthed until later on). Faults in shunts & earthing strips etc will only cause problems further down the system, they won't effect the voltage at the chokes.
    Clive Elliott

    Always wanted old British Army publications of any period (the older the better) eg AC, ACI, AEMI, AESP, AO, COSA, CP, CR, DCI, EMEC, EMEI, EMER, EMPL, EMPS, ER, ETS, JSP, LoC, LTI, MAOS, MRA, RAOS, REA, VAOS, WMTI, etc, Army & WO Coded publications in paper or fiche.

  8. #17

    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Clive,

    For the main harness I tested it with a multimeter on ohms only.
    I pulled gently the connectors and they were all ok. Nevertheless, I am not too confident in the main harness and found one to buy yesterday. It should be on the way soon.
    At least I will have a spare one.....

    A quick one on the shunt box :

    I tested the Ammeters yesterday evening and the needle is moving as per your advice.
    But both Ammeter and wired together at theirs leads. And both of them were connected to the Radio Batteries shunt....
    This I noticed over the weekend already and plug them back to the vehicle batteires shunt. (it didn't change anything, they were not moving).
    But I also have another Lead that is connected to the vehicle batteries shunt..... my understanding in your document is that only the leads for the ammeter are connected to both end of the shunt....
    If I remove this lead, I simply have no more ignition.......
    I suspect it is the lead that goes to the vehicle batteries (red line on the picture in the doc)....

    Do you think this could create a problem in the overall circuit ?

    Cheers
    Jimmy

  9. #18
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    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Jimmy you are doing well, keeping faith & being sensible.

    Ah so Mr Bodger has been at work, that can really mess up logical testing. I'm afraid even some "automotive electricians", who are no doubt highly skilled with computerised test modules & modern procedures, have difficulty grasping the military 90A system.

    Yes as you realise connecting the ammeters in parallel across the same shunt is pointless.

    Curious this wire on the shunt that determines if you have ignition. By that do you mean you have no charge light or that the ignition system doesn't work? Irrespective of the behaviour of the charge warning light the ignition system should still work.

    The warning light has two functions.

    With the ignition turned on it supplies a voltage through a devious route through the voltage regulator to supply the field winding to "tickle" it & provide some initial magnetism before the generator is running & can do this itself.

    Once the generator is providing output the "earthy" end of the bulb is no longer earthy & has a voltage of 24v or so thus matching the voltage of the batteries that are energising the coil. As per the diagram on page 66. To simplify it I have omitted the filter box & ballast resistor as that has a whole article to itself!

    Well done on the new harness. The list price is 600+ but bear in mind there are different lengths, but even if it is short you can move the gen panel closer for testing.

    I would check the harness not just for the continuity of individual wires but to make sure there is no inter-leakage between them or the metal sheath.

    Also check the U-V voltage on the gen panel to verify the field winding is indeed being "tickled".
    Clive Elliott

    Always wanted old British Army publications of any period (the older the better) eg AC, ACI, AEMI, AESP, AO, COSA, CP, CR, DCI, EMEC, EMEI, EMER, EMPL, EMPS, ER, ETS, JSP, LoC, LTI, MAOS, MRA, RAOS, REA, VAOS, WMTI, etc, Army & WO Coded publications in paper or fiche.

  10. #19

    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    Quote Originally Posted by fv1609 View Post

    Curious this wire on the shunt that determines if you have ignition. By that do you mean you have no charge light or that the ignition system doesn't work? Irrespective of the behaviour of the charge warning light the ignition system should still work.
    .

    Clive,

    I mean that the ignition is not working at all. In fact I have no more "contact" as we say in French. Exactly like if I dissconnect the batteries.
    So I am really wondering where this should be connected..... it looks to me that this lead is part of the supply, and kind of closing the circuit ?

    Shold i try to connect just under the shunt ?

  11. #20
    Join Date
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    Default Re: 90 Amp Generator on 109 FFR Land Rover

    The vehicle shunt has one side connected to the vehicle batteries +ve (& ammeter), the other side of the shunt goes to the ammeter & a brown with white trace to a terminal post.

    This is the main battery feed (other than starter of course) & provides via brown fused services on the 4-way fuse panel. It also feeds the ignition switch that, when switched on, emerges as white to the fuse panel the via fuses to green for instruments etc.

    The white (ie unfused) supplies the feed to the shunt box & thence the coil.

    So you need to follow this added red wire & see where it goes (Red wires that should be there are to do with side lights)

    Can you send a picture of the shunt box, it may be that this red wire is simply a replacement for a damaged brown-white wire & confusing the issue when the problem lies in the failure to tickle the field coil or even energise it adequately once running.
    Clive Elliott

    Always wanted old British Army publications of any period (the older the better) eg AC, ACI, AEMI, AESP, AO, COSA, CP, CR, DCI, EMEC, EMEI, EMER, EMPL, EMPS, ER, ETS, JSP, LoC, LTI, MAOS, MRA, RAOS, REA, VAOS, WMTI, etc, Army & WO Coded publications in paper or fiche.

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