44GPW Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Hi, I need some assistance with correct markings for a vehicle serving with 1st Battalion Suffolk (part of 8th Infantry Brigade). I found the unit insignia (Red castle on blue square background) but what else? Thanks Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisgrove Posted April 1, 2017 Share Posted April 1, 2017 8 Infantry brigade appears to have formed part of 3 Infantry Division for the whole of WW2. As such they would have carried the 3 Div sign on their vehicles (indeed 8 Inf Bde does not appear even to have a sign of its own at this time). 3 Div sign (on vehicles) is a black 60 degree triangle with an inverted (and obviously smaller) red triangle centred on it; the whole set on a red circle. Up until May 1942, 8 Bde was the second senior brigade - thereafter the senior. 1 Suffolks were the senior battalion in the brigade all the time. Therefore, in theory, the opposite mudguard should have carried the following; 1939/40 white 17 on a green square 1941-42 white 60 on a green square 1942-5 white 55 on a red square. The rules state that the divisional sign should have been on the front left (passenger side) mudguard and the unit AoS (the red or green square with number) on the other mudguard. Those signs were repeated on the same sides at the back. BEF trucks often had the AoS sign centrally mounted. Like most marking questions, the question lies in whether the rules were strictly followed or not, and in the exact timings of the changes. If you can find a clear pic of such a truck, then copy that! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 Hi Chris, Fantastic reply....thank you. I found this image on Google. Would this be correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laboisselle Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 That's the one, though, as Chris says, also seen in a red solid circle. I got mine made up at for my Jeep at very reasonable cost by Axholme Signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisgrove Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Yes, that's the one but that is what it looks like sewn on battledress. I have yet to see a wartime photo (or for that matter a post war photo) of a real truck in Army service that did not have a red circular background (the points of the triangle touch the circumference of the circle). But never say never! I have seen restored vehicles showing the triangle without the circle! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 2, 2017 Author Share Posted April 2, 2017 Chris, Is the circle a thin or thick line? Sorry for all the questions!! Cheers Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisgrove Posted April 2, 2017 Share Posted April 2, 2017 Its a disk - solid red colour! What you would see if you put the triangle on a red dinner plate! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) Knocked this up this morning. Does it look correct? Edited April 3, 2017 by 44GPW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Ashby Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 Yes, that's the one but that is what it looks like sewn on battledress. I have yet to see a wartime photo (or for that matter a post war photo) of a real truck in Army service that did not have a red circular background (the points of the triangle touch the circumference of the circle). But never say never! I have seen restored vehicles showing the triangle without the circle! Chris This is a well known photo credit I believe IWM, if you look at the first jeep (hood down) you can clearly see the triangle on the red background however the jeep nearest the camera (hood up) would appear not to have the red background circle. Photos taken early in the war all seem to have the red background circle so I wonder if there was a directive for change around the D Day period ? Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 Here's another 3rd Div photograph on a Priest. The caption refer's to D-Day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 3, 2017 Author Share Posted April 3, 2017 Ok, based on your excellent info Chris i'm proposing the following. One question, would it still be correct to have the Allied star in the positions shown front and rear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laboisselle Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) Other way around surely (as shown on the frontal shot of the Priest, previously)? Looking at the front, Div sign on your right as you face the vehicle. Also signs duplicated on the rear bumperettes (so no Allied star there)? Edited April 3, 2017 by laboisselle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lauren Child Posted April 3, 2017 Share Posted April 3, 2017 (edited) IIRC the white star was to be at least 8", or not displayed (was there a thread on here a couple of weeks back?). I just did a quick google on british jeep and the photos seem to only show the star on the bonnet top and sides where there is space. Edited April 3, 2017 by Lauren Child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
44GPW Posted April 4, 2017 Author Share Posted April 4, 2017 As far as the Divisional sign is concerned, looking at various photos it seems if there was a regulation as far as what side of the vehicle it was displayed, it was not always followed. I suppose with this, and where or where not to have the Allied stars was not the most important concern at the time hence why so may variations. What about the American "Ohio" aerial mount. Any British jeeps seen with this still in place. I've not come across any so far. Cheers Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laboisselle Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 Agree that 'in the field' no hard and fast rules. You see variations and oddities. That said, if it was me, I would do what seems to have been the majority thing - so on the front the signage the opposite way round to that show in the Jeep line drawing pic and on the rear no white star on the bumperette and the unit seniority number there instead. I also wouldn't put a white star on the front bumper - I would agree with the view that it's bonnet and sides only for a Brit Jeep. Ultimately though, it's the owner's vehicle - he can paint it pink if the need grips him; his choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laboisselle Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 As an aside - if you get magnetic signs made up you can not only swap the unit identity of your vehicle as and when you like, you can also, when some smartass 'expert' comes along and tells you that your Div and Unit signs are 'the wrong way round' quickly and easily change them over! Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
10FM68 Posted April 4, 2017 Share Posted April 4, 2017 See if you can get hold of a copy of each of the 4 volumes of "Warpaint" by Dick Taylor. They cover all these details from 1903 to 2003 with plenty of illustrations. Dick served in the RTR having worked his way up the ranks and certainly knows his subject. 10 68 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisgrove Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 This is a well known photo credit I believe IWM, if you look at the first jeep (hood down) you can clearly see the triangle on the red background however the jeep nearest the camera (hood up) would appear not to have the red background circle. Photos taken early in the war all seem to have the red background circle so I wonder if there was a directive for change around the D Day period ? Pete Pete As you can see, it is obvious to many that the rules were not always followed (and it is a pain to find anywhere on the back of a jeep big and flat enough to paint any signs at all), but I think I can see a circular (sorry, disc shaped) background to the triangle on that nearest jeep. But I'm sure it happened now and again. In fact we (in 19 Brigade, also with a triangular sign) rigged one of our vehicles with a bogus triangular 3 Div sign in order to do a clandestine recce of an airfield we were supposed to be raiding! I reckon your last pic would be fine. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted April 10, 2017 Share Posted April 10, 2017 This is interesting. I have the 3rd Div patch on one of my motorcycles (without the red backing circle). Several books I have on vehicle markings show the 3rd Div sign as a triangle only. As this plate from 'British Soldier' Vol2. Also all the illustrations show the Div patch on the left side, which I think was the general rule. I'd like to know for sure before I contact 'Axholm' for a dinner plate stencil to paint a red background. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laboisselle Posted April 11, 2017 Share Posted April 11, 2017 I would say that the layout as shown in that colour pic is 'right' - or at least 'not wrong'. And if it was my Jeep, that's how I'd place the signs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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