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Thread: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

  1. #121
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Wellington, New Zealand
    Posts
    74

    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by dgrev View Post
    To explain Andy's observation: a cannon typically uses the breech ring in various ways to connect the barrel to the recoil system.
    Take away the breech ring and normally the barrel will just slide out of battery of its own accord if at all muzzle high. Beware as there is considerable momentum once it starts moving. Given that yours is obviously muzzle high, either it is rusted in place, the grease has gone solid or as Andy says, it may be welded.
    What ever the explanation, it should not be sitting the way it currently is.

    Were it a traditional French 75 (slay and recoil system) as used by almost all nations artillery and tanks up to WW2 the barrel would be connected to a slay, but would be free to slide without the breech ring.

    Were we talking the special light design that came about for the Saladin, the recoil unit would be effectively a wet tube (inner and outer cylinders with piston rings and a spring) that would surround the barrel and be very compact with the barrel NOT retained by way of the breech ring.
    But the Scorpion from what I can see in your photos uses a system half way between the 2 types mentioned above. It appears to have the barrel surrounded by a tubular mount but with separate return spring and piston tubes - most odd. There is no slay from what I can see. The barrel just slides in the housing - what is effectively the trunnion block/mantlet group. I would expect to find a large accurately machined bush in that housing and some means to lubricate it.

    I cannot see that removal is a case of a twist and a pull, but who knows, as this is a rather curious system. The Centurion had a lovely quick change barrel using an interrupted thread. You undid a locking bolt on the breech ring, then turned the barrel something like 30 and slid it out from the front. This left behind the breech ring still attached to the recoil system. Your photos appear to show a flange forward of the breech thread that is hard against the mounting, so I would think the barrel could only
    be removed rearwards.

    Somebody in the Alvis AFV group must have a manual detailing the workings of the main gun?

    Regards
    Doug
    From enquiries my understanding is that unless our barrel is welded in some place then it should pull out.

    The breech ring has interrupted screw threads which attach it to the barrel.

    There is a metal oval shaped thing in front of the breach ring (technical term 'yoke') which then attaches to the recoil system. the yoke splits in 2 and fits over the bobbins at the end of the buffer cylinder and recuperator cylinder (our recuperator bobbin has been cut off) then the yoke halves reattached. this i understand holds the barrel in place.
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    Last edited by philm1; 19-06-2017 at 07:58.

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  3. #122
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    first coat of green plus more road wheels prepared for painting.
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  4. #123
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
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    Wellington, New Zealand
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Some more painting completed. 2nd coat on underside of Hull plus road wheels, wheel stud bolts and some other bits and pieces. Slowly, slowly as winter has set in.
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  5. #124
    Join Date
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    Lincoln, England
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Just be careful painting every surface.. locking rings, bolt heads, mating surfaces on the hubs etc. You might find the paint stops things fitting together properly. All the mating surfaces are usually left unpainted.

    Chris
    http://www.sirhc.co.uk
    CVR(T) Spartan, Sabre & Scimitar,
    CVR(W) Fox, Ferret Mk 1/1
    '43 GPW, TUM, TUM(HS), M151A2, Bedford MW

  6. #125
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    95

    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    I second Chris' comment. At the VW meet at Hessich (sp?) in Germany last week there was a VW Combie Ice Cream van that had been restored and the wheel fell off. The owner had painted the underside of the wheel bolts and the hole chamfer in the wheels where the bolts snug down. When the paint failed under dynamic load, the bolts came loose, the chamfer holes wallied out and the
    wheel went its own way.

    Embarrassing at best, dangerous at worst.

    Regards
    Doug

    Quote Originally Posted by sirhc View Post
    Just be careful painting every surface.. locking rings, bolt heads, mating surfaces on the hubs etc. You might find the paint stops things fitting together properly. All the mating surfaces are usually left unpainted.

    Chris

  7. #126
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Wellington, New Zealand
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by dgrev View Post
    I second Chris' comment. At the VW meet at Hessich (sp?) in Germany last week there was a VW Combie Ice Cream van that had been restored and the wheel fell off. The owner had painted the underside of the wheel bolts and the hole chamfer in the wheels where the bolts snug down. When the paint failed under dynamic load, the bolts came loose, the chamfer holes wallied out and the
    wheel went its own way.

    Embarrassing at best, dangerous at worst.

    Regards
    Doug
    Thanks for the heads up. Might clean off some of the mating surfaces as you suggest,

  8. #127
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    95

    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Phil

    You can always go around with a paint brush afterwards and touch up any visible bare metal. A bit of use and some dust and nobody will ever notice.

    Tank wheels are notorious for coming loose, no doubt due to side loads from turning at speed. Given that almost nobody seems to drive a CVRT sedately.........
    I don't know about CVRT but IIRC M113 wheel nuts are all nyloc to make extra sure they stay done up. So the last thing you want under your wheel nuts is something that can wiggle out and leave the wheels loose.

    Again I can't speak for CVRT, but do check the specification of the sprocket carrier to drive flange bolts. On M113 these are something special and a use once item. Doubtless there is a history there and a reason they did that.

    Regards
    Doug

  9. #128
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Near where the 3 Ridings meet.
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    By the same token.
    If you use new Nylocs do not be tempted to reuse them on a safety critical item.
    Use New.
    Bryan

    http://www.yorkareagroup.co.uk/

    Any opinions are mine alone and not yours, unless you want them on your head.

  10. #129
    Join Date
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    Location
    London
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    39
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    1,561

    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Bent beam nuts would probably be the best option over nylock.
    1971 AMG MUTT M151A2

    Previously owned MVs- 3x LR 101 GS, 110 V8, Chevrolet Blazer K5, HD Wolf TUM, 3x Matadors, Zil 131, Ferret Mk1, Sankey trailer, Freuhoff Tilt bed recovery trailer

    Ward LaFrance crew member A&E 2010, 2012

    Qualified coal-hoofing spade-waver, Bluebell Railway 2015

  11. #130
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    Default Re: Scorpion/Scimitar Restoration in New Zealand

    Quote Originally Posted by dgrev View Post
    Phil

    You can always go around with a paint brush afterwards and touch up any visible bare metal. A bit of use and some dust and nobody will ever notice.

    Tank wheels are notorious for coming loose, no doubt due to side loads from turning at speed. Given that almost nobody seems to drive a CVRT sedately.........
    I don't know about CVRT but IIRC M113 wheel nuts are all nyloc to make extra sure they stay done up. So the last thing you want under your wheel nuts is something that can wiggle out and leave the wheels loose.

    Again I can't speak for CVRT, but do check the specification of the sprocket carrier to drive flange bolts. On M113 these are something special and a use once item. Doubtless there is a history there and a reason they did that.

    Regards
    Doug
    Reminded of something I read many years ago. The Churchill servicing schedule said to put turn on the wheel nuts to make sure they were tight. Over the Channel, into combat, first time they were put under extreme load, a lot of Churchill roadwheels fell off.

    On Scorpion, we were issued with a torque wrench.
    Emsdorf and Victory!

    14 years' service including seven in armoured recce late 70s - early 80s
    Happy to pass on tips wrt to:
    Scorpion
    Ferret
    Sultan
    Spartan
    Samaritan
    Series 3 Landrover
    Uniforms & weapons of the period

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