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Engine colour?


Bob 110

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Bob, original colour or MoD recon, and if the latter, what period? Mk1 or Mk3 Militant?

 

Sean,

You have a point with Mk3 engine, we had a Mk3 recovery from new at the workshops and I think, maybe wrong, that it was Deep Bronze Green same as rest of vehicle. As for the scores of Mk1 Militants I worked on, I think they were all Sky Blue as they would have had at least one engine change in their life by then. Changed a few engines on them.

 

Richard

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Richard, just occured to me that being that bit later, Mk 3 might have been different.

 

Bob, I'm not an AEC expert by any means, so you can take this with a pinch of salt, but...

 

I had thought that WW2 Matador engines were black from the factory. I may be misremembering.

 

I think the standard AEC engine and chassis colour from the factory in the 1950s was a light grey (per Routemasters etc.)

 

I have seen suggestions - seemingly confirmed by Richard above - that for the military vehicles everything was painted Deep Bronze Green originally.

 

MoD reconditioned engines were originally painted Eau-de-Nil. This changed much later to Sky Blue. This is supposed to have changed in the '50s but from what I've seen appeared in practice to have happened much later.

 

My experience is that most engines I've seen in 1950s to 1960s era vehicles have been Eau-de-Nil while those I've seen in late 1960s onwards vehicles have been Sky Blue. That doesn't tally with Richard's memory but he's been intimate with a lot more Militants than I have!

 

My guess is you could go light grey, DBG or Eau-de-Nil legitimately, but perhaps Wally Dugan or the AEC guys might have some thoughts on this. A lighter colour would be better for oil leak spotting.

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first wartime AEC MATADOR engine left the factory painted black l have just received a large file on the AEC MILITANT

which l have not fully looked through but what l found is a file of letters from the head of home sales ACV for those who do not know in 1948 AEC merged with CROSSLEY AND MAUDSLEY to form associated commercial vehicles ACV one of these letters signed by a J.P BARKER for the director is on about changes to the AEC MILITANT it is addressed to the director of

F.V.R.D.E dated 2/2/ 52 one of the things discussed is a proposed change of colour to engines supplied it does not state as to what

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Having had to get close up and personal with the Militant engine I think it is Eau-de-Nil as it has a greenish blue tint ( the colour I remember all the vehicle engines were when I was an apprentice at the F.V.R.D.E in the 1970's).

The Matador is one of the 1950 build series (chassis No 085310604) the engine was silver/aluminium when I got it as it was out of one of the ex Aldershot & District Matador recovery trucks.

Perhaps I should add that both the Militant and Matador have been converted to timber tractors (see the Militant gallery for a picture of the Mili)

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first wartime AEC MATADOR engine left the factory painted black l have just received a large file on the AEC MILITANT

which l have not fully looked through but what l found is a file of letters from the head of home sales ACV for those who do not know in 1948 AEC merged with CROSSLEY AND MAUDSLEY to form associated commercial vehicles ACV one of these letters signed by a J.P BARKER for the director is on about changes to the AEC MILITANT it is addressed to the director of

F.V.R.D.E dated 2/2/ 52 one of the things discussed is a proposed change of colour to engines supplied it does not state as to what

 

Hi Wally,

When I was working on Militant Mk1 in the Seventies, I recollect how a lot of parts were stamped "MAUD" and an inspectors number. Now either there was a female inspector at AEC called Maud or that parts for the Knockers were made by Maudsley. Another thing, during the war Maudsley produced a lorry for the army called a Militant ..... so did they have a big hand in the Mk1 6x4 and 6x6?

 

regards, Richard

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MoD reconditioned engines were originally painted Eau-de-Nil. This changed much later to Sky Blue. This is supposed to have changed in the '50s but from what I've seen appeared in practice to have happened much later.

 

My experience is that most engines I've seen in 1950s to 1960s era vehicles have been Eau-de-Nil while those I've seen in late 1960s onwards vehicles have been Sky Blue. That doesn't tally with Richard's memory but he's been intimate with a lot more Militants than I have!

 

 

Hi Sean,

I started working for the army in 1974, it was rare to see engines in Eau-de-nil then and in our engine remanufacturing section, I well remember seeing two very early Bedford 300 petrol engines come in for overhaul, they were for a RAF application and were Eau-de-nil, which stuck out as odd as everything else was Sky Blue by then. Also seen brand new Daimler Dingo parts packed in 1952 and painted Sky Blue. There was an instruction to change the colour of rebuilt Rolls B range engines from E-D- to Sky Blue about 1950 (without looking up.)

As for the Mk1 Milly engines we were changing, I am pretty certain they were Sky Blue, but they would not have been long rebuilt.

 

regards, Richard

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BOB if you do not know your matador is listed as EX RAF registration number 72 AV 06

Thanks Wally I didn't know its Military reg No. I knew it was an ex RAF Matador because of the grey paint on parts that were hidden.

Do you know what body type it had?

Edited by Bob 110
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DO NOT know what just happened my reply has disappeared into the ether try again

BOB

Your matador was built as a signal van

RICHARD

The Debate goes on over the years l have come across engine coloured Eau-De-Nil once went to collect a boxed engine

from E McCann for a project when unpacked it was eau-de-nil. Two Dingo AC in the museum that came from ranges

also had this coloured engines. As to when the change to sky blue came about l am still looking for a definitive answer

l hope that this lot of AEC file may shed some light on the subject . l feel that the early factory fitted engines for the

Militant MK1 may have been still painted black but I have nothing concrete to prove this at the moment as Eau-De-Nil and sky blue was used on rebuilt engines

l would think after the merger MAUDSLEY would be involved at there factory supplying parts

 

REGARDs WALLY

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Morning folks,

Sorry to hi jack the thread but does anybody know what colour Bedford (QL) engines were when they left the factory? I'm in the process of rebuilding mine.

 

It currently has the sump and rocker cover painted in DBG. The block is a sort of orange cover, possibly a primer?? Were the gearbox and transfer box painted the same colour as the engine?

 

Cheers, Mark

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Morning folks,

Sorry to hi jack the thread but does anybody know what colour Bedford (QL) engines were when they left the factory? I'm in the process of rebuilding mine.

 

It currently has the sump and rocker cover painted in DBG. The block is a sort of orange cover, possibly a primer?? Were the gearbox and transfer box painted the same colour as the engine?

 

Cheers, Mark

 

Hi Mark,

Bedford engine colour was black at that time. See if you can find a photo of Bedford production line and you should be able to discern this even on a b&w photo.

 

regards, Richard

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I started working for the army in 1974, it was rare to see engines in Eau-de-nil then and in our engine remanufacturing section, I well remember seeing two very early Bedford 300 petrol engines come in for overhaul, they were for a RAF application and were Eau-de-nil, which stuck out as odd as everything else was Sky Blue by then. Also seen brand new Daimler Dingo parts packed in 1952 and painted Sky Blue. There was an instruction to change the colour of rebuilt Rolls B range engines from E-D- to Sky Blue about 1950 (without looking up.)

As for the Mk1 Milly engines we were changing, I am pretty certain they were Sky Blue, but they would not have been long rebuilt.

 

 

The Debate goes on over the years l have come across engine coloured Eau-De-Nil once went to collect a boxed engine

from E McCann for a project when unpacked it was eau-de-nil. Two Dingo AC in the museum that came from ranges

also had this coloured engines. As to when the change to sky blue came about l am still looking for a definitive answer

l hope that this lot of AEC file may shed some light on the subject . l feel that the early factory fitted engines for the

Militant MK1 may have been still painted black but I have nothing concrete to prove this at the moment as Eau-De-Nil and sky blue was used on rebuilt engines

 

 

Richard, Wally, we've discussed this before and no doubt will again - probably still without a definitive answer, as my bet is there isn't one!

 

My experience is from cast vehicles sold in the auctions of the '80s and '90s, and surplus and scrap engines of about the same period - so not contemporary, but perhaps indicative.

 

From my recollection, pretty much all the 1950s and 1960s built vehicles I dealt with - RLs, K9s, early Militants, Explorer etc. - had Eau-de-Nil engines. '70s and '80s vehicles - Landrover, MK, TK, Militant Mk3 and the like - typically had Sky Blue engines. I can remember quantities of scrap engines - mainly Landrover - being cleared from Bovington, and they were all Sky Blue.

 

I guess we might assume that 1950s vehicles cast in the 1990s might have done little recent work and had their replacement engines fitted many years ago, possibly from older stock, while later vehicles were probably in more regular use and had later rebuilds fitted more recently?

 

I've just checked a 1968 RL at the workshop, with the last version of the 300 petrol, and that's sky blue. I can't recall the dates of the detail changes to 300 petrols, but even if the engine is older than the truck, it seems to me it's unlikely to date from earlier than the mid '60s.

 

I recall in another thread, Wally said he thought the edict to paint Sky Blue went out in 1950, which would tie up with those Sky Blue Dingo parts and Richard's recollection of the Rolls B series changeover.

 

There's a tendency to look for a definitive changeover date and say that after that date, it must be Sky Blue. Is it unreasonable to think that real life is more messy than that, things don't just happen neatly, and our experiences are not incompatible? Perhaps armoured vehicles went Sky Blue earlier, or that whatever the edict from on high, workshops and contractors might have been sticking with Eau-de-Nil, changing to Sky Blue during the '60s; or that there was a good stock of previously rebuilt Eau-de-Nil engines available for the older vehicles?

 

Edit - by the way; MAUDSLAY!!

Edited by Sean N
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I recall in another thread, Wally said he thought the edict to paint Sky Blue went out in 1950, which would tie up with those Sky Blue Dingo parts and Richard's recollection of the Rolls B series changeover.

 

 

 

Sean and Wally,

Just found what I was looking for, Inspection Standards for Rolls Royce B range engines, published by Central Inspectorate REME and dated 1952. At the end of engine testing they will be painted Sky Blue before crating or fitting to chassis. I am sure I have seen another reference with a date so will look out for it.

 

regards, Richard

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Another data point - Eau-de-Nil (presumably replacement) engine in the 1952 Bedford OLBC tanker sold by Bovington

 

 

 

Hi Sean,

Looking at the stencil on that engine, it was rebuilt under the large engine programme that run through 44 District Workshops REME for many years, As the rebuild date is 1980, I can be 100% sure that the colour is Sky Blue, same colour as RL, MK, Land Rover and Mini engines that were done during that period. Not only that, but it is not a 28hp, but a 214 engine!

 

cheers Richard

Edited by Richard Farrant
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Hi Richard,

 

I went to see the truck. Certain it was Eau-de-Nil. It is a 214 though!

 

Would the rebuild date always be the same as the preserved date? I know little of the meaning of these stencils.

 

Hi Sean,

I worked in that workshops for 22 years, starting in 1974. Spent periods on the engine building line in the early years. The stencilling indicates the aforementioned workshop, whose code was EC02 (Eastern Comd.) and the date indicates that the rebuilt engine was preserved and packed in 1980. I would be 100% sure that is Sky Blue, as I said all engines in that period left our place in that colour.

 

Richard

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It looks like Sky Blue to me Sean. Now you are going to hate me for this. :-D

 

It is dated 1980 so looking in the 1980 edition of Catalogue of Ordnance Stores & Ammunition Section H1(a) Paints dopes & varnishes. Eau de Nil is not listed as a heat resisting paint.

 

Looking in 1978 EMER WORKSHOPS N 111 Chapter 2 Long term preservation of gasoline engines. Painting. "... then apply one coat of finishing paint H1/8010-99-943-4730". Looking in the COSA it identifies the NSN as "Heat resisting Sky Blue BSC 101 5 litre can".

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