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Mark IV Female, Ashford, Kent


Gwyn Evans

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Hi

 

I research British tanks and tank production in WW1, and I'm in need of some help in placing the Ashford tank in the Mark IV production sequence. To do this ideally I need to know its four digit manufacturer's number (which is not 1234 as painted on it today). It should be visible internally on a metal casting at the top of the diaphragm towards the rear of the sponson openings. (Not all Mark IVs have them in this position; I'm acting on a strong hunch that I've already correctly identified the manufacturer).

 

Ashford Borough Council have been helpful in searching for any internal photos they might hold, but have only been able to provide ones taken from outside through the replica rear door. These don't show what I need because the castings face forward and would be obscured from this point. Entry to the tank is now prohibited due to health and safety concerns so I can't enter and take my own photos, and I'm not sure how a drone would work when surrounded by metal.

 

I'm wondering whether anyone on the Forum already has internal photos of the Ashford tank that show this aspect. If so, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

 

I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone who has ready access to the tank and would be willing to take some external photos of some very detailed points for me.

 

Many thanks

 

Gwyn Evans

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Hi

 

I research British tanks and tank production in WW1, and I'm in need of some help in placing the Ashford tank in the Mark IV production sequence. To do this ideally I need to know its four digit manufacturer's number (which is not 1234 as painted on it today). It should be visible internally on a metal casting at the top of the diaphragm towards the rear of the sponson openings. (Not all Mark IVs have them in this position; I'm acting on a strong hunch that I've already correctly identified the manufacturer).

 

Ashford Borough Council have been helpful in searching for any internal photos they might hold, but have only been able to provide ones taken from outside through the replica rear door. These don't show what I need because the castings face forward and would be obscured from this point. Entry to the tank is now prohibited due to health and safety concerns so I can't enter and take my own photos, and I'm not sure how a drone would work when surrounded by metal.

 

I'm wondering whether anyone on the Forum already has internal photos of the Ashford tank that show this aspect. If so, I'd be delighted to hear from you.

 

I'd also be interested in hearing from anyone who has ready access to the tank and would be willing to take some external photos of some very detailed points for me.

 

Many thanks

 

Gwyn Evans

 

Hi Gwyn,

I have lived in Ashford since 1961 and the Mark IV tank is regarded fondly. The inside was gutted in the 1920's to convert it into a electricity sub-station, there is no floor and the back end had the access doors. A few years ago the council decided to get the rear rebuilt in a more authentic appearance. I had good fortune to gain access as a fabricator acquaintance was submitting a quote to do the work. I do not know of any internal numbers but there are several photos of it being driven from the railway station in 1919 and it bears a number on the outside, if that is any help. You should make contact with David Fletcher, who used to work at the Tank Museum as they are well aware of it. One interesting point, I read that these tanks when gifted to towns (and there were a good many of them), had to have the internal drive chains removed to stop anyone trying to move it. Think the idea was there could have been a civil uprising. Well this one still has the chains intact.

As for gaining access now, if the council says no then there is little chance.

 

5462671520_8d4fef351f.jpg

 

This photo is of it arriving at its present location in 1919 and the number 245 is also on it today.

 

regards, Richard

Edited by Richard Farrant
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The inside was gutted in the 1920's to convert it into a electricity sub-station...

 

:wow: - though it probably saved it from the WW2 scrap drive...

 

 

The IWM collections note about it also refers to it as Mk IV no. 245

Edited by Sean N
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Richard, Sean

 

Thank you for your replies. Yes, I fully accept the Council's refusal to allow access. It's completely understandable. Personally I wouldn't let anyone sit under the sponsons either as they're full of bricks and one day will just peel off.

 

I am in regular contact with David Fletcher. He is well aware of my research and has been very supportive over the years, but he doesn't know the Ashford tank's identity. I agree that it carried, and carries, the training number (aka home service number) 245, but this doesn't tell very much except that the tank is a Mark IV Female, which we know. I can actually narrow the tank's identity down to one of about 40, so bearing in mind 1220 Mark IVs were built that's a good start! However I need to pursue all avenues to see if the evidence of the actual manufacturer's number still survives.

 

To show what I'm looking for, I attach a photo of the starboard rear diaphragm on 4643, the Mark IV at the Australian War Memorial. At the top you can see the cast plate with the all important number nicely picked out in red. This plate should still be in the Ashford tank (with a second on the other side) as both diaphragms are intact. What I need are internal photographs that may have been taken during any surveys, or as a preliminary to work being carried out, or for any other reason, to see if these castings survive and if so, what they say.

 

Thanks for your help in this quest.

 

Gwyn

4643 starboard diaphragm.jpg

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... I should have added that not all Mark IVs have these plates, for example the Mark IV Male at Bovington doesn't. All the same there's good reason to believe that when built the tank that was eventually presented to Ashford did have them.

 

Interesting information about the Coventry chains, Richard - thank you. I don't think that there was a standard way of disabling presentation tanks, though removing at least one chain was certainly a common method. I'm sure that various methods were devised to disable tanks in a hurry and the officer in charge could have resorted to his own initiative.

 

Gwyn

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Hi Gwyn,

Sadly, I never thought to take a camera with me on that day. One other thing I can remember was that the internal lamps and wiring were still there inside the roof. Reason it took my notice was that I had been searching for some of these early Lucas lamps for a 1936 Vickers tank restoration, they were exactly the same.

The inside was virtually gutted, when the sub-station was fitted, so no other good features to see, from what I recollect.

 

There was a story that in the celebrations after the tanks arrival in St Georges Square, the crew had some liquid refreshment then drove the tank off up the road. I seem to think the story was in a local paper, will have to find out if it was true.

 

The engine was thought to have gone to the man who built the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch miniature railway, without checking, I think it was Captain Howey. No more known on what happened to it.

Edited by Richard Farrant
changed name in last para
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Being a resident in Ashford myself also, I see this Vehicle regularly.

When I was a child & lived in another town, I visited an Aunt with my parents. I seem to recall, when this vehicle was a 'cover' for the Electricty transformer. The vehicle was originally positioned in white horse Road?

 

Richard, can you confirm this? It was a few years ago! :nut:

 

Back then, I definitely remember it's external finish was in a poor state indeed! :cry:

 

When it was refurbished to it's present state, by the then Command Workshops. It was restored only externally with fittings & paint. From what I can see, the exhaust pipe & rear access door was manufactured (Very well!) The sponsons are not correct, in that the traversing sections have been made in sections of flat plate & welded together.

I believe they should be round? The external Air Jackets of the Lewis Guns in the sponsons, have been reproduced well also.

But I had to laugh though. The Foresite blocks that have been welded onto them. Are actually modern 7.62mm GPMG L7A2 versions! :-D

 

the original Battle damage on the Tank has been retained, which is a nice touch. ;)

 

It resides under it's own purpose built open sided, apex roofed building. Which does protect it from rain & snow.

it is a Registered War Memorial also, which will ensure it's survival.

 

I suspect the council's statement of refusing anyone inside. Is a blanket excuse for we cant be bothered. & also to balance this statement. It IS in this over the top society today. A genuine concern, that someone may possibly sustain a MINOR injury, either by catching themselves on something inside. or falling/tripping on a 'projection. & result in the possibility of suing the council for compensation! :-\

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I seem to recall, when this vehicle was a 'cover' for the Electricty transformer. The vehicle was originally positioned in white horse Road?

 

Richard, can you confirm this? It was a few years ago! :nut:

 

 

When it was refurbished to it's present state, by the then Command Workshops. It was restored only externally with fittings & paint. From what I can see, the exhaust pipe & rear access door was manufactured (Very well!) The sponsons are not correct, in that the traversing sections have been made in sections of flat plate & welded together.

I believe they should be round? The external Air Jackets of the Lewis Guns in the sponsons, have been reproduced well also.

But I had to laugh though. The Foresite blocks that have been welded onto them. Are actually modern 7.62mm GPMG L7A2 versions! :-D

 

the original Battle damage on the Tank has been retained, which is a nice touch. ;)

 

 

Mike,

The tank has never moved from the position it was parked in 1919. The photo of it arriving that I posted up will show you buildings in the background that are still there.

 

I was at the Command Workshops and can say that 'we' only made the dummy guns, possibly around the early 80's. Part of a Lewis gun was loaned from Bovington as a pattern. I actually took it back to the museum. The rear end of the hull and exhaust system was done about 8 years ago by a local welder/fabricator as the Council thought it should appear more authentic (May have been a grant involved). When I accessed it, my acquaintance was putting in a quote, although he did not do the job. Painting the tank over the years was often done by RTR personnel as I recall.

 

Not sure what battle damage there is on it as it was apparently a training vehicle. If you mean the cracked hull plates, this is due to stress, from rust build up in joints, and early armour plate was prone to this.

 

Regards, Richard

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Morning Richard,

Never moved? Was the restoration work not done in the Workshops then? Was it all done down town in situ?

I recall it originally sitting on a concrete slab in a grassed area, near the end of a road.

I definatley recall it 'Humming' from the sound caused by the transformer then inside it.

 

But it WAS a long time ago! I was only about 8 or 10 years old. a LONG time ago THAT was! :-D

 

I KNOW that when the workshops closed, there was a Fantastic Apprentice Made Model of this Tank. Given to the Town Council. Who subsequently gave it to the Town Museum, & it resides there today.

A Truly Beautiful Item! ;)

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Are there any holes in the hull where you could use an industrial endoscope or drain camera to view the inside of the tank?

 

No, the only 'holes', are the rotating pistol ports on the vehicle. they are solid, either through rust, or paint covering.

The Damage as Richard has clarified, is apparently stress related.

To Me, it certainly LOOKED like battle Damage! But if it was only used for driver training/ mechanics. Then that would obviate that reason.

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Morning Richard,

Never moved? Was the restoration work not done in the Workshops then? Was it all done down town in situ?

I recall it originally sitting on a concrete slab in a grassed area, near the end of a road.

 

 

hi Mike,

It was never restored by the Workshops, they were only requested to fit dummy Lewis guns in to the sponsons, as you say, not 100% authentic, but better than nothing. This was done in-situ. The work on the rear end was done in recent years by a local business.

I can be sure to say that it still stands on the original concrete that the sub station was on. It was actually in the middle of a square and you could drive right around it.

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Thanks for that Richard, if clarifies a lot. ;)

 

Yes, now I come to think of it, it WAS a square. I was a kid as said at the time I first saw it.

Defo remember the 'Humming' emanating from it! :-D

 

My Aunt live in the same road as the Tank resided then. I guess it has all been torn down & rebuilt since then.

Happy days!....:cool2: I still enjoy a Coffee in the summer. outside the café that is behind the Tank these days! ;)

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Sorry for this tardy response to latest posts, for which I am grateful. I've been away for a few nights.

 

The idea of an endoscope is a good one, but there seems to be a lack of entry points. It looks as though the vision slits above the driver's and commander's visors have been welded shut so that rules them out, and as has been pointed out the sponsons are also blocked up - literally because as I have said before they're full of bricks.

 

The Council's ban on entry is not a case of the nanny state at all. The tank has no floor and at about crotch height are four or five pieces of angle iron joining one side of the hull with the other. Any stumble negotiating those will likely bring a clumsy clod in contact with at least one of the two Acroprops that are holding up the roof. I do have permission to use a drone but that will require some practice, and I'm concerned whether it's practicable in a iron room. That's why I'm trying all routes to locate people who might have interior photos first.

 

I do need some photos of specific external details. Would any of you who are in the area be willing to do this for me please? The pictures will be for my own personal study, and not for publication. If so, perhaps you could contact me by personal message? I'm reluctant to post my email on an open forum.

 

Thanks

 

Gwyn

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Might be a silly suggestion - i don't know how crowded the interior is (although it can't be that bad if you're considering a drone) but if they are willing to open it to allow a drone in, could you not use a selfie stick or similar? Or even the aforementioned endoscope?

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Thank you for all the suggestions. A look at selfie sticks (and similar) on the market suggests they're extendable up to about 41". The distance between the rear door and the point I need to see is between about 50" and 58", so they're probably not long enough. Likely to be considerable wobble at that distance as well I'd have thought. Endoscopes have a much longer reach, obviously, but how to point one at what I need to see once it's inside (if from behind the plate) is another problem to which I'm presently lacking a solution.

 

Gwyn

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Thank you for all the suggestions. A look at selfie sticks (and similar) on the market suggests they're extendable up to about 41". The distance between the rear door and the point I need to see is between about 50" and 58", so they're probably not long enough. Likely to be considerable wobble at that distance as well I'd have thought. Endoscopes have a much longer reach, obviously, but how to point one at what I need to see once it's inside (if from behind the plate) is another problem to which I'm presently lacking a solution.

 

Gwyn

 

An endoscope is probably unsuitable anyway, unless you can get it really close to the bit you're interested in. I suspect the typical "in focus" distance is under an inch. An autofocusing camera on a suitable long pole (with ideally its own light source and remote control from a laptop so you can see what you're looking at before taking the shot) would be better.

 

What's the relative position of the target area from the rear door? If it's straight in and look sideways, I'd consider sticking a camera on a length of 2x2 (tripod bush is 1/4" Whitworth), rotate it to the angle you need, and then feed it in - use something to support the rod to reduce shake and see what you get. (My old Fuji S2Pro can be controlled from a Mac/PC over USB for studio work, and would probably work well in this situation. I'm sure more recent cameras offer the same features.)

 

Chris.

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If you don't mind some simple fabrication and have a camera with a tripod screw thread it would be possible to make your own selfie stick: 1/4" Whitworth thread bolt (check size on your camera), 3 metres metal electrical conduit/pipe for the stick, tripod to clamp the pipe part way down for stability, long cable release, small flash, wide angle lens setting, small aperture for depth of field. Bit of messing about but cheaper than a drone if you don't already have one.

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An endoscope is probably unsuitable anyway, unless you can get it really close to the bit you're interested in. I suspect the typical "in focus" distance is under an inch. An autofocusing camera on a suitable long pole (with ideally its own light source and remote control from a laptop so you can see what you're looking at before taking the shot) would be better.

 

What's the relative position of the target area from the rear door? If it's straight in and look sideways, I'd consider sticking a camera on a length of 2x2 (tripod bush is 1/4" Whitworth), rotate it to the angle you need, and then feed it in - use something to support the rod to reduce shake and see what you get. (My old Fuji S2Pro can be controlled from a Mac/PC over USB for studio work, and would probably work well in this situation. I'm sure more recent cameras offer the same features.)

 

Chris.

 

Hi Chris

Thanks for the advice. The relative position of the target and and rear door can be seen in the photo in post #4 on page 1 of this thread. The rear door is the oval-ish shape in the background. None of the interior machinery remains and the floor has been removed. The Acroprops mentioned earlier are further forward than the target so shouldn't pose a problem as they'd be out of reach of any stick, though they are a hazard to anyone entering due to the risk of a fall dislodging them.

 

Gwyn

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