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European BAN for assault weapons proposed - EVEN IF PERMANENTLY DEACTIVATED


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It is worth considering that not everyone here is British, not everyone lives in Britain. The point surely is to discuss the legislation, and not the value of the EU, nor to devalue the opinions of EU citizens nor those living elsewhere.

 

trevor, living in Poland

 

Absolutely. That's why the other thread was pulled from the Forum.

 

Andy

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"Laws don't just appear do they without discussion"

Yes they do.

Agree with you totally. They do just appear it seems when it is anything to do with what the UK says. We need to get back to what we want. That is OUR right and no one else's.

Edited by DFC1943Fl.Lt.
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The reason the posts were pulled is because we do not allow politics or religion on the forum - for the simply reason (as what happened here) everyone gets very hot headed and they allow their stress to over flow onto the forum - where it isn't welcomed.

 

So, as has been the case for the last 11 years, no religion or politics on HMVF. It makes for a far simpler life :)

 

Many thanks,

 

Jack.

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Sadly Laws do appear without warning. If a new piece of UK legislation is produced to meet an EU directive then it requires no debate in parliament, no vote, I t can just be passed and entered into Law. If you have an interest in a specific area and keep an eye on various places where government puts consultation documents etc. you might get some warning. But if the EU passes a directive, national governments, including the UK have a fixed period to enact that directive in National Law (I think it's 4 years). So there is some flexibility to recognise different legal systems, but the EU does check that a directive has been properly transposed into National Law. They EU does notify countries if they consider they have an issue and then give them a period to fix it or they will get penalties (big fines). An example that I can think of is to do with meat for human consumption. The EU passed a directive that the meat had to be inspected after slaughtering. The UK already had meat hygiene inspectors so the UK thought it was OK. The EU disagreed and legislation was changed to require a vet to inspect the meat after slaughter. Unfortunately they did not (at least initially) remove the need for the meat hygiene inspector so in the UK 2 indivuals were required to certify the meat.

 

it should be noted that this process of going through 'on the nod' only applies to legislation to meet EU directives if the Government adds anything extra it has to go through traditional parliamentary process.

 

i can't remember the specifics but I think there were statistics for one year under the Blair government where over 3000 new pieces of legislation were introduced without debate or vote in parliament to enact EU directives.

 

so it is important that organisations, members clubs, forums such as this share information on new national regulations and more importantly discussions on EU directives as the only place we, the public, gave any chance of influencing the law that may gave to be enacted four years hence.

please not this post is not intended to be political, but simply provide a summary of the facts (as I Understand them, on how new laws can 'appear' seemingly without notice. If I am wrong in any area please feel free to post a correction or let me know and I'll amend this. If you feel any part can be interpreted as political again let me know and I am happy to correct/clarify.

julian

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Someone I met at an MV event today, said that the legislation from the European Union to ban deactivated weapons has now been adopted in the UK. Is this true?

 

Not according to the Deactivated Weapons Association website, the legislation is not on the statute books as yet, therefore it is not currently law.

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Sadly Laws do appear without warning. If a new piece of UK legislation is produced to meet an EU directive then it requires no debate in parliament, no vote, I t can just be passed and entered into Law. If you have an interest in a specific area and keep an eye on various places where government puts consultation documents etc. you might get some warning. But if the EU passes a directive, national governments, including the UK have a fixed period to enact that directive in National Law (I think it's 4 years). So there is some flexibility to recognise different legal systems, but the EU does check that a directive has been properly transposed into National Law. They EU does notify countries if they consider they have an issue and then give them a period to fix it or they will get penalties (big fines). An example that I can think of is to do with meat for human consumption. The EU passed a directive that the meat had to be inspected after slaughtering. The UK already had meat hygiene inspectors so the UK thought it was OK. The EU disagreed and legislation was changed to require a vet to inspect the meat after slaughter. Unfortunately they did not (at least initially) remove the need for the meat hygiene inspector so in the UK 2 indivuals were required to certify the meat.

 

it should be noted that this process of going through 'on the nod' only applies to legislation to meet EU directives if the Government adds anything extra it has to go through traditional parliamentary process.

 

i can't remember the specifics but I think there were statistics for one year under the Blair government where over 3000 new pieces of legislation were introduced without debate or vote in parliament to enact EU directives.

 

so it is important that organisations, members clubs, forums such as this share information on new national regulations and more importantly discussions on EU directives as the only place we, the public, gave any chance of influencing the law that may gave to be enacted four years hence.

please not this post is not intended to be political, but simply provide a summary of the facts (as I Understand them, on how new laws can 'appear' seemingly without notice. If I am wrong in any area please feel free to post a correction or let me know and I'll amend this. If you feel any part can be interpreted as political again let me know and I am happy to correct/clarify.

julian

 

-----------------------------------------------

 

I don't think this is all quite correct. AFAIK , most EU Directives have National / Local variations - look for a N inside a circle in the marjin of such documents this N = a National variation to the EU wide Directive.

 

With vehicles / trailers - there could have been loads of problems :-

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9758494/EU-backs-down-over-threat-to-classic-cars.html

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Do not count your chickens yet Ruxy. That attempt failed - BUT - FIVA (the Euro equivalent of FBHVC) are proposing this again as part of their attempt to define what is and is not a classic car. Full details were on the FHBVC web site but seem to have vanished now. As I understood it from their e-Mails the FIVA proposals will say that a classic vehicle is only a classic vehicle if every single part on it is OEM or a replica thereof manufactured to the original standards and materials and certified as such (no one knows who by!) Only vehicles meeting this definition can be classed as classic and thus be permitted the special insurance deals - i.e. not requiring NCB, agreed value etc. - and tax exemptions all ours currently enjoy. Effectively it puts classic motoring in the realm of the rich only. And it will affect Historic Military too. If you have a GMC converted to 12v it's an instant fail as is seat belts in a Jeep, any tyres manufactured after the end of the time in service or hazard beacons on slow moving vehicles. Needless to say the FBHVC are contesting this and luckily it is only FIVA and not the EU trying it on. Perhaps the absence on their web site means FIVA have been compelled to take another look at these proposals??

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As I understand it the law came into force in the EU in early April but there was no law on the UK statute book under which anyone could be prosecuted. To remedy this and to speed up the introduction of a relevant law an addition was made to legislation which was already going through Parliament but to the best of my knowledge this legislation has not yet passed onto the statute book. As far as I remember it was expected to be enacted sometime this month.

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Do not count your chickens yet Ruxy. That attempt failed - BUT - FIVA (the Euro equivalent of FBHVC) are proposing this again as part of their attempt to define what is and is not a classic car. Full details were on the FHBVC web site but seem to have vanished now. As I understood it from their e-Mails the FIVA proposals will say that a classic vehicle is only a classic vehicle if every single part on it is OEM or a replica thereof manufactured to the original standards and materials and certified as such (no one knows who by!) Only vehicles meeting this definition can be classed as classic and thus be permitted the special insurance deals - i.e. not requiring NCB, agreed value etc. - and tax exemptions all ours currently enjoy. Effectively it puts classic motoring in the realm of the rich only. And it will affect Historic Military too. If you have a GMC converted to 12v it's an instant fail as is seat belts in a Jeep, any tyres manufactured after the end of the time in service or hazard beacons on slow moving vehicles. Needless to say the FBHVC are contesting this and luckily it is only FIVA and not the EU trying it on. Perhaps the absence on their web site means FIVA have been compelled to take another look at these proposals??

 

-----------

 

Just last week , I was reliably informed by somebody who should know Club official Morgan (pre-war Austins 7 + 10 / 12 etc.) he advised that testing for roadworthiness of trailers, caravans and cars (presently exempt from MOT) was still on. He then stated that ££ prices were depressed on the Austin front, as there was a lot of fear. I doubted this , he then stated - when you get home Goooogle around the word ' roadworthiness' , this I did but was unable to come across anything significant that he was describing. We sort of agreed that all that was real buoyant on the local valley(s) front - tractors.

 

You have just reinforced exactly what he stated , he certainly had fear as his stock is quite high , then he went on about the club's "re-manufactured" blocks for a 10 , not so slow movers at £4000 + who would be buying in the future (I question that price - his reply , I see the paperwork and only the foundry is making a profit) . He was a bit iffy about a radiator rebuild with new core costing a few hundred , under the circumstances he should / could have stuck with the bodge repair by PO , rather than the annual spend with cottage industry specialists to raise the overall standard.

Edited by ruxy
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it has come to my notice, that a certain major retailer of Deacts & Militaria in the UK.

 

Has attempted to get a selection of Freshly 'Cut' Weapons through the Birmingham Proofhouse. Cut to the new EU Specifications.

 

They were ALL rejected as unprovable due to some of the 'requirements' preventing correct & Official Inspection's of Said

Weapons. To pass & Certify as Official Deactivated!......

Also, that some of the 'requirements' were NOT as rigorous as Much of the UK Specifictions. And thus not UK compliant!

 

This proves as I have previously mentioned on this topic. That the UK specs are as agreed by NABIS. 'Fit for Purpose'!....:angel:

 

And that there is absoulutely NO Need to change the UK Specs for deactivation. As mentioned by another poster.

the SIMPLIST & EFFECTIVE way forward on all of this unessacary 'Nonsense'.

Would be for ALL other EU Member states to adopt the UK's Deact specs = SIMPLE!

 

.......Oh no! I forgot! Any Government Department, dosent Function on Common sense. Or Arguably, 'Transparancy/ The TRUTH'!.........:red:

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These gun laws were brought into Australia in 1995. I cant even have a broom stick poking out of my turret, under the current firearms legistlation. I can however aquire a pistol license and buy any number of semiautomatic concealable weapons. I cant possess a long arm semiauto, or pump actions shotgun. Any replicas must be licensed as if they are operational.

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Don't know if this has been mentioned on here yet but I'm sure it could affect a lot of us!

 

European BAN for assault weapons proposed

European commission has proposed new, harder guns laws. These would include:

 

-ban of any "assault weapons", that are classified in the B7 category.... AR, AK, FAL etc... EVEN IF PERMANENTLY DEACTIVATED

- selling and possession of alarm weapons regulated by a declaration of the owner

-ban of online sales of weapons, key parts of weapons and ammunition.

 

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6110_en.htm

 

 

-------------------

 

RARE weapon saved by remote location , deac proof house certified ??? spoilers if it is..

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-36255867

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To help in keeping this thread on track, this is what I believe to be the current situation. I'm happy to be corrected by those with better knowledge.

 

It is important to realise that there are TWO pieces of legislation that affect deacs and they are getting muddled up with each other.

 

The first is the implementation of Commission Regulation 2015/2403 on the guidelines for deactivating firearms. As this is a regulation it is automatically implemented by EU countries and was adopted by the UK on 8 April 2016. This makes it illegal to sell or otherwise transfer a deac unless it conforms to the 2015/2403 regulations. It does NOT ban military deacs.

 

The second, and more worrying piece of legislation is the proposed set of changes to the EU Firearms Directive 91/477/EEC. Amongst other things, this would ban military deacs, even if deactivated to the 2015/2403 regulations. An EU committee, chaired by Vicky Ford MEP, has consulted with a large range of groups that would be affected by the changes and come up with a set of revised proposals. These revisions include removal of the clause to ban deactivated military weapons and also a clause that says deacs do not need to conform to the 2015/2403 regulations if they conform to an existing national standard that can be shown to be equivalent. Should this revision be adopted, deacs to the latest UK specification would probably comply, earlier deacs with full moving parts probably would not.

 

However, there has been considerable push-back against Vicky Ford's revisions from a number of countries including, I understand, the UK. The proposals are due to be debated by the EU in June, so they are not UK (or anyone else's) law yet.

 

I hope that helps!

 

Andy

Edited by andym
Clarification
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  • 4 weeks later...

Re-posting Jacks statement as some members seem not to be getting the message that Politics are not welcome on the Forum.

 

 

 

The reason the posts were pulled is because we do not allow politics or religion on the forum - for the simply reason (as what happened here) everyone gets very hot headed and they allow their stress to over flow onto the forum - where it isn't welcomed.

 

So, as has been the case for the last 11 years, no religion or politics on HMVF. It makes for a far simpler life :)

 

Many thanks,

 

Jack.

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It is hard to keep politics out of it when they create this mess. We can only vote with our wisdom and go from there.

 

It's not that hard really. Everyone has their own personal opinions, including me. Let's just keep them personal and restrict the posts to those that impart knowledge or information?

 

Andy

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Well, I don't particularly believe in having ex-military hand weapons around, but I don't see why my opinion should be the only one. More to the point, rather than sitting around blaming someone else or looking to find shoulders to cry on, I like to do something about the imposition of any unnecessary restriction of freedom or poorly thought through regulations. So I signed.

 

https://www.change.org/p/council-of-the-european-union-eu-you-cannot-stop-terrorism-by-restricting-legal-gun-ownership

 

I just need to help find another 175,000 other people now ;)

 

Less whine, more wine, I always say!

 

trevor

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  • 3 weeks later...

Yet again we've had reported posts as members can't follow the rules and keep the forum free from Politics. Posts have been deleted.. Next member that posts a political comment will earn themselves a short break from the forum ..

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OK, Enough! Those of us in the UK are living in interesting times now. In the near future I think our hobby will be taking a low priority with regard to other things, but it's safe to say probably nothing is going to happen just yet. I will make a few emails, and I'll post the reply if I get any.

 

There is scope for genuine non-political discussion about our scrap metal, let's keep it that way!

Edited by x2onion
speling
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  • 5 months later...

Remembering to keep this non-political (please!) here is the latest from Vicky Ford's Facebook page:

 

The third trilogue on the Firearms Directive took place on 15 November. The fourth trilogue is agreed for 5 December. This is a normal and expected procedure.

......

Deactivated Firearms

 

It is important that deactivation of firearms should be irreversible and ensure the firearm is inoperable. The European Deactivation Regulation introduced in April 2016 sets a single standard for deactivation but has raised many practical issues for legitimate holders of these items, including reenactors.

There is now a clearer understanding by the Council and the Commission of the issues faced by legitimate holders of these items and progress is being made on resolving implementing issues in the Deactivation Regulation. The Parliament is clear that the Expert Working Group on the Deactivation Regulation must have completed their work by early 2017.

Regarding deactivations before April 2016, the Parliament position is that firearms deactivated to an equivalent previous standard should still be able to be bought and sold and Parliament suggests that national deactivation standards which are equivalent to the aims of the new EU standard adopted should be recognised as such. The Commission have now taken this concern on board and are working on new language to enable this.

It is clear that the Commission will not be prepared to just rubber stamp all old deactivation standards so it will be up to each Member State to make the case for deactivations undertaken according to their previous system and the Commission to then approve on a case by case basis.

 

Andy

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  • 2 months later...

The latest from Brussels (full text here): http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/news-room/20170126BKG59909/revision-of-the-eu-firearms-directive-an-overview

 

"Deactivated Weapons

 

In order to strengthen deactivation regimes, the European Commission introduced a new deactivation regulation which came into force in April 2016. This sets a single standard for deactivation of firearms. However, technical implementation issues have arisen and some countries were concerned that the new standard would be less secure than their previous national regimes. Following pressure from Parliament, the European Commission has now re-convened a working group of experts from the EU member states to review the regulation. The Commission has pledged that a revision will be completed by early 2017.

 

“The introduction of the deactivation regulation caused problems for legitimate holders of deactivated firearms such as historical re-enactors and those involved in film making etc, as it prohibits them from selling or transferring across borders any items deactivated prior to April 2016 unless the items are re-deactivated to the new standard, which is not technically possible in many cases. Following pressure from Parliament there will now be a process to assess national standards in use prior to April 2016. If the standards are accepted by the working group and Commission as equivalent, then items deactivated to that previous regime will be able to be bought, sold and transferred without requiring further modification”, explained Vicky Ford (ECR, UK).

 

The Commission proposed that all deactivated firearms would become subject to the same registration and authorisation procedures as firearms. This was rejected by the co-legislators. Instead the negotiators agreed that newly deactivated firearms should be categorised in Category C and need to be declared to national authorities but will not require an authorisation or licence. This will not apply to existing deactivated firearms."

 

A full vote by the full EU Parliament is expected in March. No political replies, please!

 

Andy

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Well - it could have been worse - a lot worse. If Vicky Ford and her committee can swing it so that prior spec deac's can be bought and sold without needing to be upgraded to these new specs then a great deal will have been achieved over the original proposals.

I believe the declaration in effect already occurs here as the Proof Houses retain copies of the deac certifications which can be viewed by Gov't inspectors on request.

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Agreed Neil - these proposals are a significant walk back from the originals. On the subject of prior spec de-acs, I suspect the standard in force before April 2016 would be OK, I don't see the "old spec" standard passing the test. Just my opinion though. At least we'll be able to have de-acs.

 

Andy

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