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W&P 2015: Unusual 10 cwt Trailer. WWII?


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Spotted this over the weekend at Folkstone.

 

Many features of other WWII British 10 cwt trailers on this one.

 

Clearly the hitch has been changed, but is it a post-war trailer? I'm guessing some kind of Linesman's Trailer

 

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Spotted this over the weekend at Folkstone.

 

Many features of other WWII British 10 cwt trailers on this one.

 

Clearly the hitch has been changed, but is it a post-war trailer? I'm guessing some kind of Linesman's Trailer

 

 

Looks like a hint of a post war number under the OD paintwork on the overpainted rear numberplate on the rear view. Looks like 69 EC or G something something. That suggests a post war trailer as the wartime trailers were given new VRNs in the xxY?xx or xxX?xx series.

 

Just a thought

Edited by simon king
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Spotted this over the weekend at Folkstone.

 

Many features of other WWII British 10 cwt trailers on this one.

 

Clearly the hitch has been changed, but is it a post-war trailer? I'm guessing some kind of Linesman's Trailer

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]106372[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106373[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106374[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106375[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106376[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106377[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]106378[/ATTACH]

 

post-war linesman/GPO trailer. I followed it into W&P

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John I don't know. The ISPL is dated 1959 & this supercedes an earlier publication. In the past I have made the mistake of assuming that with such a date it indicates post-war production. This question arose with other similar designs of cargo & mortar trailers which I thought were post-war but were to identify the parts available at the time to keep wartime equipment going.

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Looks like 69 FG 69 to me, but that'd put it in the same batch. Definitely 69 FG XX.

 

Was going to say that'd make it around 1969 - 1970 ish but Clive got there first and more accurately! All the fittings, lights etc. including convoy light are of post war (1950s on) pattern.

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I'm intrigued by the assymetric cast spring hangers - (yes I know how sad that sounds)

 

They seem to be the same pattern as those fitted to many of the 10cwt trailer survivors. If they were original to the wartime trailers it would mean that the same castings were in production, unchanged, for almost 30 years if the jointers trailers were manufactured in the late 60s. Not impossible I suppose.

 

Not all of the 10cwt survivors have this type of cast spring hanger. If you can garner anything from the few wartime pictures available, it seems that they have a fabricated steel plate, rather than cast, hanger. Some of the survivors retain this fabricated type of hanger.

 

I'd always assumed that cast v. fabricated was manufacturer specific but I'm wondering now whether the cast spring hangers are not original to the wartime trailers at all but were fitted sometime during the 60s as the wartime trailers went through a REME rebuild programme. We know that that happened as some trailers still carry rebuild plates. Perhaps it was found that the fabricated hangers were not robust enough for the prolonged use that some of the wartime trailers were experiencing.

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Interesting thread :) This is one of my trailers, I seem to have bought 4 varieties this year, oops!

 

A lot of people came and talked to me about it at W&P which was nice, another owner in Holland who’s on here, sorry I forgot your name, and an old chap who is a friend of a friend knew quite a bit about them. He said they are for cable work and remembers them when he served, he said they were WW2 and knows of film footage but I had guessed the body was post war. The GPO did buy them after their military service. The brass data plate which gives the name Jointers 2 wheeled trailer as Clive said and contract info. I thought the chassis is WW2 but the body just post war but could well be wrong, would the WD have re-bodied or stockpiled trailer chassis? What are the metal loops on top for?

 

The chassis and all the running gear is standard WW2 10 cwt. I have placed it next to my Morter and GS trailers and they are identical apart from small details like brackets. It has the standard WW2 handled hitch which I removed to repair. The post war number is 69 EG 69.

 

The trailer pulls very nicely and has compartments inside, I think I will fit larger 6x16 tyres.

 

Simon – Interesting about the spring hangers, I thought mk1 had the pressed ones and mk2 the forged. My Morter and GS have the same forged ones.

 

Radek that’s my friend Andys Austin, I can put you in touch with him if you like.

 

Carleton

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Hi Richard,

 

Interesting, I'll double check tomorrow in daylight as the paint has faded around it. Its also hand written in light silver pen on the front end.

 

Cheers

 

Carleton

 

I forgot to ask, can you post up the details off the contract plate please as that could throw some light on this.

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What are the metal loops on top for?

 

I think they're handholds for pushing the trailer across fields. They look very similar in shape to the handles on the WW2 Wireless Handcart.

 

The trailer is probably for buried (lead covered, paper insulated) cable maintenance, so would have the usual digging implements plus soldering and sheet lead working tools, lineman's tent and so on.

 

Ah... just looked in Signal Training Pamphlet No.4 Part V (1940), there's no mention of trailers but there is a big list of plumbers and jointers tools from "Baskets, Tool" by way of "pump for desiccating", "Tent, Jointers" to "wooden rod to fit sleeve"! It's Doc. 5065 on the WS19 group archive http://www.royalsignals.org.uk/signals.htm#UK if you want to know far too much about this sort of stuff. :D

 

Chris.

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... he said they were WW2 and knows of film footage ... I thought the chassis is WW2 but the body just post war ... The chassis and all the running gear is standard WW2 10 cwt. I have placed it next to my Morter and GS trailers and they are identical apart from small details like brackets. It has the standard WW2 handled hitch which I removed to repair. The post war number is 69 EG 69.

 

This doesn't seem quite to add up; I've no doubt the basic design might have carried on being built post war, but the registration, whether it's 69 EG 69 or particularly 69 FG 69, is very much post war - as Clive has said, more like 1969 / 70 - and all the lights etc. are typical 1950s - 1970s practice, not wartime.

 

Would be interesting to see a photo of the data plate and any other plates on it.

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Interesting thread :) This is one of my trailers, I seem to have bought 4 varieties this year, oops!

 

A lot of people came and talked to me about it at W&P which was nice, another owner in Holland who’s on here, sorry I forgot your name, and an old chap who is a friend of a friend knew quite a bit about them. He said they are for cable work and remembers them when he served, he said they were WW2 and knows of film footage but I had guessed the body was post war. The GPO did buy them after their military service. The brass data plate which gives the name Jointers 2 wheeled trailer as Clive said and contract info. I thought the chassis is WW2 but the body just post war but could well be wrong, would the WD have re-bodied or stockpiled trailer chassis? What are the metal loops on top for?

 

The chassis and all the running gear is standard WW2 10 cwt. I have placed it next to my Morter and GS trailers and they are identical apart from small details like brackets. It has the standard WW2 handled hitch which I removed to repair. The post war number is 69 EG 69.

 

The trailer pulls very nicely and has compartments inside, I think I will fit larger 6x16 tyres.

 

Simon – Interesting about the spring hangers, I thought mk1 had the pressed ones and mk2 the forged. My Morter and GS have the same forged ones.

 

Radek that’s my friend Andys Austin, I can put you in touch with him if you like.

 

Carleton

Morning Carleton,

 

Sorry I Missed you at the show. I spoke to James Dodson who told me a little about the trailer.

Do you have a manufacturer's name?

I'm aware of the the one in the Netherlands and have corresponded with the owner, but we were always looking for firm evidence of WWII service.

Many seem to remember them with the GPO and there has grown up a belief that they were built for them using ex-military parts, but your one certainly dispels that particular "trailer myth".

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The chassis appears to be a 10cwt chassis with a lightweight chassis front stand mount. If the cylindrical tow hitch barrel is correct (the brake handle is of the same period) then surely there should be grab handles welded to the chassis bar. The mudguards and mudguard brackets seem definitely post-war.

Would the brackets/metal hoops on the top be supports for when the lids are opened - the lids would then act as flat working surfaces.

All in all it appears to be a post-war build using some wartime components.

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Many seem to remember them with the GPO and there has grown up a belief that they were built for them using ex-military parts, but your one certainly dispels that particular "trailer myth".

 

The army (and also the RAF) made extensive use of underground cable from WW1 (to protect it from shellfire) onwards and much of it was based on GPO practice (and used identical equipment). There's an entire volume of the Signal Training series (hard to get, since it was classified as "CONFIDENTIAL" or "SECURITY" (I' forget which), though there are a couple of editions at Kew) dedicated to it. "Signal Training Volume VI - Fixed Signal Services", which is basically about the Defence Communications Network, harbour and coastal defence installations, etc.

 

There was also a fair amount of personnel transfer between R. Sigs and the GPO during WW2 to deal with urgent work (this caused considerable unrest because the GPO paid considerably more than the Army rate, and also tended to quietly transfer the "loaned" personnel to other projects when nobody was looking).

 

Basically the fixed infrastructure would use common equipment and practice and a large number of Signals presonnel would have been snapped up by the GPO when they were demobbed.[1]

 

Chris.

[1] It's still happening today, BT were certainly hiring ex-signals people as they returned from Germany and were being made redundant - they were very happy to get them, too. (All current skills including fiberoptic cable work.)

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No 10cwt Jointers trailers is listed in the late war edition of the British Army Data Book of Wheeled Vehicles. However (and forgive the thread drift) it does include a 6kv generator on the standard 10cwt chassis used for GS, mortar and DF trailers. Has anyone ever seen what these generator trailers look like - they are not the airborne version.

 

Are these of relevance???

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=416.

http://www.mapleleafup.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9822

 

 

Edited by simon king
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... a large number of Signals personnel would have been snapped up by the GPO when they were demobbed.

 

And Signals kit. The GPO bought a huge amount of WD / MoS surplus vehicles and equipment after the war. Maybe where / why some of the myths started.

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There was also a fair amount of personnel transfer between R. Sigs and the GPO during WW2 to deal with urgent work (this caused considerable unrest because the GPO paid considerably more than the Army rate, and also tended to quietly transfer the "loaned" personnel to other projects when nobody was looking).

 

That is interesting Chris. I'd never thought about it, but makes perfect sense. I have a friend whose father was a Major in the R.Sigs and he was responsible for rebuilding the telephone system in Cologne in as soon as it was captured.

 

Back to this trailer: the link Simon has added refers to the known example in the Netherlands, which is a Brockhouse.They had a contract S1551 for "Trailer 2wh (for Jointers)" which were allocated X4957838 - X4957873. I dont know when this contract was placed with Brockhouse.

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