news De Activated weapons and Police attitudes.

Ladies and Gents, for the last few weeks I havebeen engaged in a polite standoff with the local police over a couple ofDe-Acs. As the matter is now satisfactorily settled I’m passing on myexperience in case others have problems.

I cannot fully go into things as a parallel matteris still ongoing, so if I’m a bit cryptic there is a reason. The basic is thatI had to contact the Police; they came into my flat at my invitation. I thenhad to attend A&E. whilst is there a police officer came to see me, I wasexpecting a statement over the other matter to be taken. Instead the officer wasmore concerned that there was a De-Ac Bren and Sten in my spare bedroom. I toldhim they were De-Ac, and therefore by the legal definition of De-Acs, none theless the officer told me they would be sized for examination. I really was notin the mood to argue so let it go.

After a month I contacted the police asking when Iwould get my property back. I received a very woolly answer that they were ‘Waitingto see if I could have them back or if they required further de activation. Asthis was legally wrong I consulted a Solicitor. The advice I received was thatthe police may seize property if it is part of an investigation. If theinvestigation leads to charges then the property may held for evidentialpurposes until the case is concluded, then disposed of at the direction of thecourt.

As I had not been told I was being investigated, Iagain phoned and asked about the situation. I was then told ‘They may beconsidered replicas’. Again legally wrong. At this point I put my concerns in writing,pointing out the errors and stating that if I did not with in ten working days ofthe receipt of the letter information that 1 I was being investigated and maybe charged, or 2 My property back, further action would be taken. This was sentby recorded delivery to the local area Commander. Today my De –Ac’s were returned.

The points of law on which the this was based areThe Proof Act 2005: This states quite clearly the a Deactivated firearm that isproof marked is not considered a firearm: It also states the this act does notrevoke any previous proof marks. Therefore the dated proof mark placed on thefirearm when it is deactivated is still valid, and no further deactivation wasrequired.

Section 8 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (Chap 45) whichdefines De-activated weapons and applies to the VCR.

There are no controls on who may purchase or ownde-activated firearms.

The Replica or Realistic Imitation Firearm is coveredby the Violent Crime Reduction act (Amended 2007) Section 8. First, you would not have Proof House onReplicas, and second there are a number of exemptions in the act. One of whichis Historical, living history or military re-enactment, of any period, providedthat it is a group with Public Liability insurance. I am a member of suchgroups and have Public Liability cover when participating in Military re-enactment.So even if they were replicas I have exemption.

The officer leading the investigation into theother matter did admit at the beginning that they were not experienced inmatters concerning de-activated weapons. It has taken about six weeks to get thismatter concluded, and has required constant challenges to every reply. Thoughother obvious replicas and de-ac weapons including hand guns and rifles were ignored.At the time. Nothing at the time was on display so officers would have had tosearch the flat to find them. At the time I was not suspected of committing anyoffence, and subsequently no charges have been laid against me.

This whole sorry affair seems to have beeninitiated by ‘Guidelines’ so be careful folks and know what you can and can’tdo.

My advice in future would be 1 Get the name or numberof any officer showing interest in your collection. 2 If they intend to seizeanything, ask politely, why? Under what Act and the section they intend to seizeand what offence you are alleged to have committed? Make carful notes of all answers.

I hope this never happens to anyone else, but beprepared!

Ladies and Gents, for the last few weeks I havebeen engaged in a polite standoff with the local police over a couple ofDe-Acs. As the matter is now satisfactorily settled I’m passing on myexperience in case others have problems.

I cannot fully go into things as a parallel matteris still ongoing, so if I’m a bit cryptic there is a reason. The basic is thatI had to contact the Police; they came into my flat at my invitation. I thenhad to attend A&E. whilst is there a police officer came to see me, I wasexpecting a statement over the other matter to be taken. Instead the officer wasmore concerned that there was a De-Ac Bren and Sten in my spare bedroom. I toldhim they were De-Ac, and therefore by the legal definition of De-Acs, none theless the officer told me they would be sized for examination. I really was notin the mood to argue so let it go.

After a month I contacted the police asking when Iwould get my property back. I received a very woolly answer that they were ‘Waitingto see if I could have them back or if they required further de activation. Asthis was legally wrong I consulted a Solicitor. The advice I received was thatthe police may seize property if it is part of an investigation. If theinvestigation leads to charges then the property may held for evidentialpurposes until the case is concluded, then disposed of at the direction of thecourt.

As I had not been told I was being investigated, Iagain phoned and asked about the situation. I was then told ‘They may beconsidered replicas’. Again legally wrong. At this point I put my concerns in writing,pointing out the errors and stating that if I did not with in ten working days ofthe receipt of the letter information that 1 I was being investigated and maybe charged, or 2 My property back, further action would be taken. This was sentby recorded delivery to the local area Commander. Today my De –Ac’s were returned.

The points of law on which the this was based areThe Proof Act 2005: This states quite clearly the a Deactivated firearm that isproof marked is not considered a firearm: It also states the this act does notrevoke any previous proof marks. Therefore the dated proof mark placed on thefirearm when it is deactivated is still valid, and no further deactivation wasrequired.

Section 8 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 (Chap 45) whichdefines De-activated weapons and applies to the VCR.

There are no controls on who may purchase or ownde-activated firearms.

The Replica or Realistic Imitation Firearm is coveredby the Violent Crime Reduction act (Amended 2007) Section 8. First, you would not have Proof House onReplicas, and second there are a number of exemptions in the act. One of whichis Historical, living history or military re-enactment, of any period, providedthat it is a group with Public Liability insurance. I am a member of suchgroups and have Public Liability cover when participating in Military re-enactment.So even if they were replicas I have exemption.

The officer leading the investigation into theother matter did admit at the beginning that they were not experienced inmatters concerning de-activated weapons. It has taken about six weeks to get thismatter concluded, and has required constant challenges to every reply. Thoughother obvious replicas and de-ac weapons including hand guns and rifles were ignored.At the time. Nothing at the time was on display so officers would have had tosearch the flat to find them. At the time I was not suspected of committing anyoffence, and subsequently no charges have been laid against me.

This whole sorry affair seems to have beeninitiated by ‘Guidelines’ so be careful folks and know what you can and can’tdo.

My advice in future would be 1 Get the name or numberof any officer showing interest in your collection. 2 If they intend to seizeanything, ask politely, why? Under what Act and the section they intend to seizeand what offence you are alleged to have committed? Make carful notes of all answers.

I hope this never happens to anyone else, but beprepared!

 

Same happened to me years ago,about 10 firearms, all deacs with certs!!

Story is I was selling some German stuff to a so called collector. He wasn't really interested in what I WAS selling, more of what I WASN'T! Kept enquiring about the weapons, offering stupid low prices for them. Finally had enough of him and told him to leave. His final words were, "it's illegal to own them and call me if you need to sell!!"

Next day go into work and redirected to two CID officers enquiring about illegal weapons and wanting to see them.

Got a nice ride in police car home, freely showed them weapons, certs and even stripped them to show ground off bolts and welded bores!!

NOPE, still illegal according to them!!! WHAT?????

So World Wide Arms selling illegal weapons now???

Politely asked where they got this stupid info from and was told by a concerned member of the public!!! Guess who???

They even called the Rapid Response guys who came tooled up.

Told them the same, showed them the same and still no clue!!!

Had them taken away for further investigation.

Took about two months of phone calls and visits to the station until told, I can go collect them!!

Why can't they return, too busy was the answer.

So I sympathise with you mate. Mine was in the late 90s, nice to know they still don't have a clue!!!

We do public displays now and always make the point of notifying the local plod.

My secret weapon is such matters is 'Recorded Delivery' be reasonable for a couple of weeks then send a 'Recorded Delivery ' letter spelling everything out and giving a fixed term, in this case ten working day from delivery, or start really kicking off. Result, letter arrived Thursday, 8 am Monday phone call, 08:40 de-acs back. The other thing is everytime the term 'GUNS' was used point out the law specifically states if a Firearm is de activated, it is not a gun. I kept saying 'My bits of scrap metal. In there favour the actual officer who took them away appeared very embarased about it, but 'Orders From Above'' I'm tempted to make a very acerbic comment about ACPO but this isn't the palce.

This is a useful site for checking on legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/

My secret weapon is such matters is 'Recorded Delivery' be reasonable for a couple of weeks then send a 'Recorded Delivery ' letter spelling everything out and giving a fixed term, in this case ten working day from delivery, or start really kicking off. Result, letter arrived Thursday, 8 am Monday phone call, 08:40 de-acs back. The other thing is everytime the term 'GUNS' was used point out the law specifically states if a Firearm is de activated, it is not a gun. I kept saying 'My bits of scrap metal. In there favour the actual officer who took them away appeared very embarased about it, but 'Orders From Above'' I'm tempted to make a very acerbic comment about AC PO but this isn't the palce.

This is a useful site for checking on legislation http://www.legislation.gov.uk/

Yes mate, it's only ever happened the once, now when we meet them in the street they are fascinated and show interest outside the law. It's the old saying tho, we know more as its our past time, hobby and business sometimes. We know the ins and outs, workings, specification etc.

Mate had his Thompson taken away as an elderly neighbour kept calling the police on him when he went to shows, in uniform, in his jeep and the weapon not on show!!! Police had to do something as she kept calling them, in the end he got rid just to keep the peace!!!

I would venture so far as to risk sticking my head above the parapet and suggesting perhaps you two are the exception rather than the rule?

I regularly travel with my de-acs (rifles in rifle bags etc. so obvious what they are) often on public transport. Other than the time I was stopped by a quiet young officer of the transport police at London Victoria (who was quite happy to admit he was in unfamiliar territory and merely took a copy of the de-ac cert before sending me on my way) the only police interest I've ever had were those who wanted "to have a play". Firearms officers are the worst for it, i once had to get a team to hurry up and pass the Lee Enfield No.4 around quickly or I'd miss my train. Everyone else I've spoken to has said similar, some of us frequently pass by a regional command centre and none of them gave us a second look.

The trick, i think, is to be so bloody obvious that you couldn't possibly be up to anything!

I have had de-acs for many years, I've never had a problem up to now. The point is the Police were investigating a serious offence commited against ME! They were in my home to investigate that matter! Then everything is distracted by my LEGAL poccessions.

I regularly get Police Officers ask me are my armoured military vehicles road legal as they pass by the number plate! Anything outside of a robbery is not on their agenda and even a robbery or theft these days is something they don't care too much about, so when it comes to firearms activated or otherwise and the law they are in a world of their own.

Diana

I did'nt have a problem with the uniform guys and girls. They were great, it's when the Upper Echelons got involved, the problems started.

The matter though has been very proffesionally handled by my local Police and is now satisfactorily concluded. The good part is a number of them are now much more familiar with the various legislation covering de-acs and replicas. A basic bit of advice, when transporting any de-ac or replica, treat it as real, cover completly and if possible travel them in a locked box. I also chain mine to the vehicle unless they are in my hot litle hands!

First time I drove wmik to work I got pulled by 2 unmarked armed response officers on there way back from training, they knew it was civi due to plate colours but still had to call it in as few days after Luton incident last year.

So the chopper was on route as was the on duty super intendant and the full Audi Q7 armed response team.

They wanted a butchers and to let me know that a member of the public might call it in as a stolen Millitary vehicle with guns on.

I responded by saying its just as well Ive had a shave and chose not to wear the shmag today.

They managed to call the chopper off but the super and AR still attended as protacall.

Only issue they had was that although the gpmgs were covered they were not secured with chains etc.

Super simply said "knew it would be you two"

And I got to look at the gear in the Q7 boot and plenty of pics were taken both theres and mine toys.

Quite nice event for all as one of the 2 unmarked officers was due to retire so he had one last AR call before he finished.

As always the guys on the ground are normally level headed. The worst are when they have just got the warrant card and out to make a name for themselves. I had great fun with one young copper some years back when he was being puppy walked by a longtime mate. The young sprog tryed to give me a parking ticket, he got a fast lesson in how to deal with the public, the importance of looking at time plates and not to put his gloves on the MOP's vehicle. My mate just stood back and let it happen.

Hi

I have a deac 30cal browning which I bought years ago with a vehicle. It is clearly marked with proof marks(Birmingham I think), but I do not have the certificate. Can I get a copy? And if so where would I get it from. Without the cert what is my position legally

It is the marks on the firearm are important. You can get a new certificate easily enough, but better to go through an RFD as they have the Proof House trust. Birmingham marks are two crossed Swords, London have two crossed Sabres, both with date numbers. The latest Proof Act, 2007 speciffically says 'This act does not superscede previous Proof House marks' so if anyone suggests 'Further De-Activation' they don't need it. The marks are legal are for the standard required at the time of de-activation.

The London Proofhouse Making is a Bent arm holding a Scimitar, with the date underneath.

NOT, Two crossed Sabres.......:-X

Just checked my London de-ac S&W. Just to be awkward, it has both a Scimitar mark, and two cross swords. :red:

It at have been re-presented for a cert or further deactivation by previous owner

Or, most likley, it was originally proofed at Birmingham. :blush: Military US firearms were never proofed. I have a MB42a that came over lease lend in February 1941, Clearly marked Property of US Goverment. The rifle spent it's time in service, ending up in a Sea Cadet unit. When they gave up the armoury it came to my RFD who called me. There was no proof mark on it. It has since been properly proofed by the London house. Having had another close look at all my various paerwork, the certificate for my Webley is clearly marked Duplicate, so they are available.

Where would I apply for a duplicate certificate? I am a little wary about stirring up a hornets nest by putting my head over the parapet & getting the authorities involved with the issue. I've been lucky in that I've never been pestered by the old bill regarding the perforated tube sticking out of the ferret turret, but it seems that attitudes may be hardening, and getting the paper work in order would be wise

Talk to a local Registerd Firearm Dealear is the easiest. Though you can contact Birmingham or London direct and ask for guidance. The Firearm laws are actually quite aminable, if you are trying to do the right thing in good faith.

I've just spocken to the Birmingham Proof house by phone, very helpful . How to apply for a duplicate. Contact either of the Proof houses, arrange an appointment and take the de-ac along to them. They will then do the paperwork for you and examine the firearm. On verification, which may take some time, a new certificate will be issued. As far as De-Acs go it isn't nessacary to go through an RFD. Both houses can verify each others marks. Telephone Birmingham 01216433860 London 02074812695

Things could get worse.

FIREARMS LAW. A scoping Consultation Paper:-

http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cp224_firearms.pdf

Things could get worse.

 

FIREARMS LAW. A scoping Consultation Paper:-

 

http://www.lawcom.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/cp224_firearms.pdf

... or they could get better. Removing the confusion over "component parts" would be an extremely good thing.

Andy

And the only ones that loose out and get crushed by even more red tape and paperwork are the law abiding citizens. When will they realise that the tw#ts that break the law don't care about any new laws :-( :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

And the only ones that loose out and get crushed by even more red tape and paperwork are the law abiding citizens. When will they realise that the tw#ts that break the law don't care about any new laws :-( :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

If you read the paper (as I did for my bed time read!) you will see that the proposed changes will have little effect on those collecting deactivated weapons.

There is no misapprehension that criminals will suddenly stop using firearms, what they are trying to do is to close the loopholes that allow criminals to walk from court, scot free, because the wording in the laws is so poorly defined.

To give a summary, in so far as it would affect those of us here without a FAC:

Currently "Antique Firearms" is completely undefined, some of you may be aware of the "obsolete calibre" list but this is merely guidance from the home office and not currently law. Whether a firearm is an antique or not is a matter for the jury to decide, which led to an amusing, and scary case, some years ago (also pointed out in the paper) where a Lanchester, the 9mm ammo of which is ready available, was deemed an antique. The meant a man could own a fully operational automatic weapon without a licence. Any attempt to define an antique would inevitably lead to some items in somebody's collection becoming legally defined as firearms and thus illegal to own without a FAC, although the more obvious solution there would be to apply for a certificate.

"Deactivated Firearms", contrary to popular belief, do not need to be deactivated by a proof house to home office standard. Under the current law they need only to be proven in court that they are "rendered incapable of discharging shot etc." and there are many weapons deactivated prior to 1986 when the first home office specifications were drawn up. It will likely be those deactivated weapons that will be targeted, as there is inconsistency in the methods employed, and many have been found easy to reactivate. The solution, if you have any deactivated firearms that were not proofed at Birmingham or London is simply get them proofed. If the original job was good enough then the proof houses have the discretion to certify the weapon (and thus stamp it), if it's not good enough, then sorry, but it will need to be deactivated properly (unless of course you want to apply for a FAC). Of course they would all still count as Imitation Firearms and could thus be used in committing certain crimes, such as carrying an Imitation Firearm in a public place- bet you didn't know that!

It must be stressed that this isn't for nothing, cases involving weapons held legally as antiques, or previously deactivated firarms that have been reactivated, have been increasing. This is not speculation or pub gossip but fact, the paper even gives figures for the met police force. One example cited was an officer shot in the hand whilst trying to disarm a person with an "antique" Belgian pistol, chambered for .32 which is still available.

On the whole I found the paper, and the proposals it puts forward, very interesting and positive reading. Most of the suggestions are logical and helpful, in fact it even points out in places where the suggestions they are making are actually already in practice within the real world but not yet enshrined in law. This isn't the VCR bill, which was rushed through by the Home Secretary to look like she was doing something. These proposals are looking to completely overhaul the current system, rather than tack a few bits on the end. Not only that, but it has formulated through consultation with the "stakeholders", that is to say they have been in talks with gun clubs, air rifle associations (even the airsoft scene) and yes surprisingly enough, collectors of antique and deactivated firearms!.

Fair point, well made. Wheres my coat?....

Wheres my coat?....

There's no need

It's an understandable reaction given the travesty that was the VCR bill. It's also a common belief that all laws are clear black and white, and meant to pre-emptively stop people doing something. In reality lawyers make their living by exploiting the vague and contradictory nature of laws, and the wording of the law is important in being able to successfully prosecute a criminal. Personally I'd be much happier if some of those laws were better defined, for my own piece of mind, so that I was sure I wasn't inadvertently breaking the law by possessing an illegal firearm that I considered an antique.