question Large scale Chieftain tank model enigma

Thanks to all for the welcome, normally I spend time on model millitary forums so this first time with the big boys. (please be gentle).

Normally, from what I can find out about factory models or apprentice models, they are usually around 1/10 scale for easy of display and movement.(picture from the 80s Leeds) They can be very complicated to encourage apprenticeship input, usually made from plated materials and using machining principles to improve skills, but this model of the Chieftain is something else and for me a bit of an enigma.

So here we go.

The Chieftain tank model is an all metal nut and bolt hand built construction about 1/5^th scale, imperial measurements BA nuts and bolts date it, and I guess it was built around 1970. It was never painted, but was varnished at one time with brass/gold coloured trim parts. I believe it had once been powered by a large single motor driving some form of gearbox via belts or chain, all of which was removed.

I was told by the previous owner that he had rescued it from a clear out from one of the Chertsey departments, RARDE, MVEE. The model is so large that it was suspended in steel cradle, with lifting lugs, ropes were used to drag it round, almost totally empty and it was sadly starting to deteriorate.

She has now been restored with a few improvements from my point of view, new drive system, control, quality sound and a traversing turret. Outwardly though original, as she would have been at the time of her build.

I would like to know who built it and why ? Why was it never painted? Why the gold trim? All lines of enquiry have so far been exhausted. It looks like a possible factory model, a lot of time, castings, money and effort went into building her. Research shows the Queen visiting the fort in 1972 would it have been there at that time? If anyone knows any of the answers, please let me know.

John

Sorry about the selfy, it there to show size. honest, the little picture in picture is an apprentice model from Barnbow, Leeds during the 70's, about 1/10, not quite this monster.

WOW!!! that huge!!

Looks to be a very detailed and good quality

Wow, incredible, thanks for posting. I hope you find out more,

Andy

Wow! Sadly, I know nothing about these things.

Have they bonded rubber onto the wheels, like the full size tank?

trevor

Hi to all

Thanks for the replies, The detail on the tank is very much stand-offish, most of the kit mounted on the decks are merely shells with no openings, They appear to be brass which has been tin plated, the previous owner said that the model could have been a test bed for equipment placement, but the Mk2/3 was around at this time, so that does not make sence. She has the engine deck of a late Mk3 but a NBC pack of a Mk2. If she was a sales model she would be very big to transport around, though the Forces probably would'nt think much of it. As a sales pitch for a Mk5 she does not carry all the gear, But all prospective buyers back in the 70's were probably not rivet counters like sadly, me! But there nothing like artistic licence, which I have to use too.

The Horstmann road wheel units were cast with spring action thankfully and the front pair fitted with shocks The tyres appear to have been cast and bonded to the wheels. The sprockets for the model are split rimmed and mainly stainless steel. The final shaft passes though the dummy cast final drive gear box. This was a shame because if it had had been geared it would have made the model a lot easier to motorise. I had to provide a lot more torque than normally needed, to get her to move freely, this is at the expense of speed, She's fast enough and will give an Armortek KT a good run it's money.

At a guess, it's either an apprentice workshop piece or was possibly used for Radar Cross-Section or other targetting measurements.

Andy

well she's a beauty and no mistake What a find too ! how did you get to buy her?

I have seen similar models of kit! They were used for , honestly, tetsing of paint and finish. Though most arent that beautifully made. Later commercially made plastic kits were used. The idea was to give a 3D impression of various colours, like a selection chart. The old MOD site at Aquila outside Bromley used to house the 'Packing and Painting Department'. Dozens of square plates about 6 inch square stacked on wooden racks outside with various finishes on them. Got quite spooky doing night patrols as the wind could whistle through them. :-D

Hi

I really love this forum, for once I can put decent sized pictures on without problems a rising due to size and format.

Love the ideas coming in radar recognition, paint test piece, apprentice piece, but surely the cost of her must have been an arm and leg. In todays money I guess she would cost over £15k to put together. One off castings costs a small fortune to make, some of her is as much as an inch thick cast alloy. Track, tensioners, suspension units, road wheels, armour, gearbox and motor mount, all cast. As for an apprentice model, there's too much casting, a hell of a lot of machining when CNC was thing of the future. The turret ring is single casting and the turret itself has been made from three pieces of 1/8 aluminum hammered to shape, rivited together, then polished. Even the track pins are detailed like the original.

My own romantic idea is that she was a presentation piece that went horrbly wrong. The gearbox designed for her although gone, would have been complex, She was steerable because she has two final drive shafts, a single motor very large, driving though clutches? No battery space, so it was wire remote. (Miniturised R/C was'nt common for this type of model at the end of the 60's)

A large sale to Iran was due around this time and a shiney large model with gold trim might have made a good presentation piece. But the drive system like the original, may have given the model builders problems.

The picture shows the only remaining gear when I got her. It's way too small for the final drive as any gearbox guy would know.

I think she was worked on and then discarded when the sale fell though, hidden away till the clear out came along.

Ending up on evilbay as these things sometimes do.

At least she was saved, and will carry on long after I've gone. We are all just custodians in the long run.

Keep the ideas coming, what were the ropes for? All that detail on the cupola but no commamder sight? why is the no gunner or loaders sight?

I hope someone must have seen her before she was deemed scrap at the depo.

Thanks to all readers for taking the time. John

Must admit I like the idea of a 'Sweetner' to some Forign body 'Oh I say! Isn't it your Darling Son's birthday coming up soon? I have just the toy for him!' :cool2:

Must admit I like the idea of a 'Sweetner' to some Forign body 'Oh I say! Isn't it your Darling Son's birthday coming up soon? I have just the toy for him!' :cool2:

But the British government would never involve itself in bribery in order to secure foreign military sales... :-X

It is possible that this was an on-going project, on which many apprentices worked, and which still remains a work in progress.

trevor

But the British government would never involve itself in bribery in order to secure foreign military sales... :-X

Perish the thought! Like they would never supply Meteor engine parts to South Africa and Rodeshia!

Hi

I really love this forum, for once I can put decent sized pictures on without problems a rising due to size and format.

 

Love the ideas coming in radar recognition, paint test piece, apprentice piece, but surely the cost of her must have been an arm and leg. In todays money I guess she would cost over £15k to put together. One off castings costs a small fortune to make, some of her is as much as an inch thick cast alloy. Track, tensioners, suspension units, road wheels, armour, gearbox and motor mount, all cast. As for an apprentice model, there's too much casting, a hell of a lot of machining when CNC was thing of the future. The turret ring is single casting and the turret itself has been made from three pieces of 1/8 aluminum hammered to shape, rivited together, then polished. Even the track pins are detailed like the original.

 

To be honest, one off or small run castings are not that pricey or really difficult, we used to have suitable facilities at my secondary school in the 70s, sand and moulds and something to melt the metal. By the way, there were CNC (well technically NC as they didn't use computers) machine tools in the 60s, indeed they date back to the 40s and used paper tape to hold the machining instructions.

To my mind the only thing against being a presentation piece is to why it's not on some Middle Eastern sideboard? Surely, if you build a gift you actually present it?

I'd be inclined to the radar test subject theory, remember they actually built a full size generic "Soviet" tank for radar testing, it's at the Bovington Tank Museum, so money was no object.

It might be a prototype of a range of decoys, to fool the Warsaw Pact that the tanks were miles away;)

Still, it's good you have preserved it.

jh

Hi to all

Thankyou all for your time and input, I think that the model Chieftain being around for almost 45 years, may have played many parts in her time, in short durations. Anyone of the one of the ideas described could be true, before being tucked away when a new project came along.

The apprentice idea really sounds good, but I would have thought for a model of this size, would have had more detailed work done to her other than the odd areas, cupola, louver vents and gun crutch. I have seen some of their models and they do go to town on them with high levels of detail. There was even a gold challenger 1/10 scale sitting Vickers reception at one time. (wonder who's got that now?)

I know Chertsey is a bit of an area 51 for the MoD, so the radar/paint stuff is plausible, but its the gold bits that throw me.

The gun crutch, painted gold, fully working with a working spring loaded clamp to hold in place, all accurate detail. I suppose I can only conclude that over enthusiastic project manager wanted his baby to look as good as it could during testing demonstrations.

Unless someone knows better?

Who ever built her, did a fine job. Like a lot of tank enthusiast’s, I was brought up on images of German tanks. The Britsh did'nt always build the best tanks, but when we got our act together towards the end of WW2, we designed world class AFV's and have done since. I cannot own a real tank, could'nt afford to run one and the niegbours would upset when I parked it up. if I was honest I just enjoy watching them put though their paces. The Chieftain was probably the best design/looking tank ever built, had it not been for that poor L60 (german junkers design) motor forced on the designers, it could have been an all time great.

If you look closely at the picture I use in my title you will see a small chieftain(Possibly yours in working condition?) following a real chieftain, the picture was taken at MVEE whereabouts I cannot say for sure as trials were carried out all over the UK.

The picture was taken sometime between 1977 to 1980 as I know the trooper in the chiftain who was stationed there the same time as me.

Whether the model was built by apprentices or as part of a project I cannot remember now, but I do know that apprentices at MVEE did build some items during their apprenticeship.

If you look closely at the picture I use in my title you will see a small chieftain(Possibly yours in working condition?) following a real chieftain, the picture was taken at MVEE whereabouts I cannot say for sure as trials were carried out all over the UK.

 

The picture was taken sometime between 1977 to 1980 as I know the trooper in the chiftain who was stationed there the same time as me.

 

Whether the model was built by apprentices or as part of a project I cannot remember now, but I do know that apprentices at MVEE did build some items during their apprenticeship.

How about posting your title picture so we can see it better ?

Hi Chieftain Mk4,

(Sorry but as yet you have not posted your name), don't know where you are located but on 2nd & 3rd August 2014 in Heywood, Manchester we have a Tank running day at which there will be 2 Chieftains, 1 Centurion, a number of 430 series and I will be taking either my M578 or CET. You would be very welcome to bring along the Mk4 Chieftain as an exhibit. This event it open to the public with all proceeds going to a local hospice.

There are around 20 acres where the tanks run around all weekend. For pictures of last years event have a look at Heywood Tanks on facebook.

Thanks to all for the welcome, normally I spend time on model millitary forums so this first time with the big boys. (please be gentle).

 

Normally, from what I can find out about factory models or apprentice models, they are usually around 1/10 scale for easy of display and movement.(picture from the 80s Leeds) They can be very complicated to encourage apprenticeship input, usually made from plated materials and using machining principles to improve skills, but this model of the Chieftain is something else and for me a bit of an enigma.

So here we go.

The Chieftain tank model is an all metal nut and bolt hand built construction about 1/5^th scale, imperial measurements BA nuts and bolts date it, and I guess it was built around 1970. It was never painted, but was varnished at one time with brass/gold coloured trim parts. I believe it had once been powered by a large single motor driving some form of gearbox via belts or chain, all of which was removed.

I was told by the previous owner that he had rescued it from a clear out from one of the Chertsey departments, RARDE, MVEE. The model is so large that it was suspended in steel cradle, with lifting lugs, ropes were used to drag it round, almost totally empty and it was sadly starting to deteriorate.

She has now been restored with a few improvements from my point of view, new drive system, control, quality sound and a traversing turret. Outwardly though original, as she would have been at the time of her build.

I would like to know who built it and why ? Why was it never painted? Why the gold trim? All lines of enquiry have so far been exhausted. It looks like a possible factory model, a lot of time, castings, money and effort went into building her. Research shows the Queen visiting the fort in 1972 would it have been there at that time? If anyone knows any of the answers, please let me know.

John

Sorry about the selfy, it there to show size. honest, the little picture in picture is an apprentice model from Barnbow, Leeds during the 70's, about 1/10, not quite this monster.

 

 

 

The Challenger with the man in the white coat is still around; not as big as the Chieftain by some way but still a substantial model. Power unit is gone but the transmission is still there. Suspension works and the track is made from individual links. The model at present weighs around thirty kgs. It looks like the elevation was controlled by a simple mechanism. All pictures taken today.

That is a great bit of kit!

You should speak to Armortek or mark 1 tanks to see if they would knock up some running gear for you to get it mobile....!

Very tasty - but I think that's meant to be a mark 5. Consider:

Stowage box on RHS of turret (Mk.3 onwards, vs. jerrycan rack on Mk1 and 2)

Engine deck covers at rear raised (Flat before Mk.5)

Twin headlights and splash board (Mk.3 onwards; though the lights were retrofitted to Mk.1 vehicles, being training tanks and the splashboards were retrofitted to Mk. 1, 2 and the earliest Mk.3 I think; I spotted a photo of an early 3 somewhere, I am sure, without the splashboard.)

I can't remember the date of introduction of the Mk.5, but the 3 was in service from very late summer (September?) 1969.

Hi to all

Firstly thank you for the invite to Haywood Manchester, I have to work that weekend, but will try for a shift swop. I'd love to get a close up with the real deal.

The Chieftain is fully mobile, converting it with the biggest wheel chair motors I could find and fit, The beauty of which if there is any motive failure you can always take the motors out of gear and push it.

I think you may be right Brucie, I've just seen your Avitar, fantastic. Have you got a larger picture I could see, where did it come from and when?

The original picture in picture from the start of the thread. shows what I believe to be an apprentice model from an edition of the Yorkshire Evening Post about 1967, it's a small picture because the cost of an enlargement was about 20 pounds. Since it is a 1/10 scale or there abouts and painted it is not my model, so I didn't really want it.

I believe the Chieftain to be a MK3s onwards because she has the modified engine deck for the uprated L60 7A motor but continues to carry the Mk1 NBC pack. The commanders stowage box would be correct. Other fittings such as the gun crutch, lights and splashboard were common upgrades around the late sixties early seventies.

I know it's not a MK4 because the suspension is the older Horsman type as apposed to the Hydrogas fitted to the MK4

That Challenger model is really very nice and may cast some light on what may have been in the Chieftain, although I think it may have chain or belt from the single motor to the gearbox.

The turret rotates via another large motor gearbox but I have not treated the gun elevation to radio control. Two reasons, First tank models tend to have gun bounce at they travel which looks a little naff some times and second, the picture below shows the inside of the turret and the locking device to position the gun, which is original. Having carved the model up enough to get her to run I thought I'd leave that bit original. I could do it, but to have the five foot long turret/gun rotate is enough beside its alot less wiring to get screwed up.

A Benidini sound module completes the model.

Still hoping to find out the reason she was built.

John Clarke

A few questions:-

do you think you will ever paint it?

will you be taking some footage of it running and posting it?

on the open market, ie fleabay, what do you think it would fetch?

Love it

R

Hi Robin

I did my best not to change too much of the model when motorising the Chieftain. There is some fine detail in places but in other areas it is quite crude. Outwardly I want to keep it original. I'd like to find some pictures of the model when she was used for what she was built for, what ever that was.

My lnterest in tanks begins with memory's from great war films, the beginning of Kelly's Hero's, a Tiger in the rain for me is unsurpassed. One of the strongest memory's is the bunker scene from The battle of the bulge.

The big metal coloured tank model is impressive.

So the Cheiftain will stay as she is while I have her and like she has been for forty odd years.

Sorry, I cannot put a value on the Chieftain.

I haven't got any footage of her moving around yet, I also have to work out how to upload stuff too.

Hi All

The kind gentleman Brucie, forwarded me this picture of the model dated from the late 1970's which mensioned earlier. On the back it is stamped British Aero Dynamics Industies based in Bristol. Why the model is in the middle of a field and what the model is being used for is still a mystery. The connection with the Aero industry might shed light on the quality of the build of the and a possible connection to MVEE.

If Antar could get back to me with details of the show at Heywood, I'd love to attend on the Sunday and maybe take another picture with it's bigger brother.

John