W&PR wreckers arena event

Calling all owners of wreckers and recovery vehicles who will be attending W&PR 2014 (and anyone else with ideas of what they'd like to watch).

I have had a chat with Rex regarding our arena slot. My suggestion was that it should either be over the weekend or that we should have more than one slot. This was following various conversations with other owners so I hope this will be viewed positively. I also suggested that we should have a longer slot as we have been squeezed and squeezed over past years - last year being the worst when the preceding world record Jeep thing took much longer than anticipated.

Rex is interested in the idea but we need to justify the change and I'm sure we all don't just want to drive round in circles so I'm looking for suggestions for things we can do. Whatever it is needs to be completed in around half an hour to 45mins. To start the ball rolling I would suggest heavy hauling with a train of trucks, maybe all on front lift behind the one in front and taking it in turns to take the lead; heavy lifting; winching a car in half... Given the size of the arena I think we could probably perform several displays at the same time.

Just to give an idea of what can be done in this timescale we did this one year at Beltring with two WLFs while the other trucks were driving round and parking up:

I would like to go back to Rex with some proposals within the next month or so. All comments and suggestions appreciated.

Thanks in advance - MG

Good stuff Mike, I would be happy to do car winching again but maybe with two Scammells if it fits into your plan.

The main thing that may needs to be thought about is placement in the arena for multiple displays, the view for spectators is not great at the new site, with the distance from the barriers and with spectators on only two sides, the action could easily be missed it's so quick, ideally it needs to be done as near to the spectators as safety will allow.

In the case of pulling cars apart and most wrecker displays there's a lot of setup to do in the allowed time, if it's dusty and there's a lot of activity that might not be a pleasant job, which could well be wasted effort as the fickle public want instant action..

I'm up for anything and I'm sure something can be sorted out, wrecker displays in the past have been pretty spectacular, Forceful's looking forward to it already!

The 23 Engineers Regiment (Air Assault), based at Rock Barracks, former RAF Woodbridge. Used to have an family open day few years back, I think they have been on duty away from the base to do it in recent years, so they haven't opened.

Any ways they had all new MAN recovery's out, letting the kids use the remote controls, moving cones and stuff about with the jib. But the impressive bit was an old bedford they had, kept rolling it over from side to side with a couple of trucks and winches, all comms carried out via the radio. Each time the bedford landed on its wheels or cab, it landed with a ever so gentle bump, hardly making a sound.

All good stuff to see, look forward to seeing what you can get together.

Pete

Good idea Mike.

I have always thought the wreckers are some of the most interesting vehicles at the show but were always relegated to a small arena slot on Wednesdays or Thursdays.

I'm struggling with ideas though - as Bernard pointed out - the public do like to see instant action unless there is a wow factor at the end.

Wreckers by there nature can either lift, winch or pull so that narrows it down a little.

I used to go to recovery shows when I was on the big rigs and we used to sit a double decker bus on it's rear end but we had commercial wreckers and a "prepared" double decker bus to do it. I don't think it could be done with military equipment.

I'll have Shrek at the show but I'm not sure about the Ward.

Mark

Hi Mike and everyone else !

Keep em in the loop with the Arena as I am always happy to have constructive criticism and ideas, at the end of the day its Myself and Rex that put together the running order.

All the best,

Andy

A good idea to show off what recovery vehicels are for

However as already alluded to the rigging time will probably outweigh the general publics Wow!! factor

A tank can just charge around and look impressive!!

As has been said a set piece display of righting a vehicle is impressive but to be done safely takes time to set up and does that time justify the end?

I dont know!!

Hi Andy,

Don't remember what year it was but the REME TA guys from Ashford once did a demonstration at Beltring with two Foden recovery trucks turning a Saladin end over end. Have some photos somewhere but will have to scan them.

The other thing you can do with a wrecker or two is rig up a Zip Wire! :banana:

I wonder if the topography at the new site lends itself to this? Mike - your Oz friend Sam with the Kenworth did this and carried a jeep over a ravine didn't he? If one wrecker was in the arena (at the edge) and the other outside it could be set up without disrupting other events maybe?

Now a WLF zip wire might be a great way to get a quick 'pedestrian' transit from the top of the vehicle field straight to the arena area :cool2:

Its no problem to set up stuff in the Arena when another event is taking place (we have to juggle that every year), just have to time things right, and anyway the public like to see lots happening.

I think its great that people are thinking ahead, that way we can make a much better show and have the chance to show off the vehilces in ways they can and are used !

Andy

One thing we don't have to worry about at W&P is the background knowledge that the arena commentators share with the audience, this and the usual bit of ribbing and banter will hold the audiences attention during any periods of apparent inactivity....keeping that up must be harder work than rigging a display!

So maybe for this display a commentary double act like some TV shows have, would mean each one could catch a breath while the other talks about whats happening in another part of the arena.

Just a thought..

PS that's commentary double act not comedy!

Quick observations have done many demos at training sessions shows etc. What grabs attention from spectators is movement they soon become bored. second its "size that matters" joe bloggs has no concept of weight only size. From reading comments there will be two WLF there why not roll one on to its side "No Damage of course" and stand it back up again three or 4 times in the centre of the arena while the others are going around the outside.

it would only take an hour to practise getting distances right out of site of course. Once ready to go it could be set up in minutes. One parked at right angles to the other in line with the superstructure a couple of soft endless straps on it "the crane superstructure". using the winch on the recovering one to winch the casualty over untill the crane catches it then lower down untill it looks to all intents and purposes it looks like its laid flat on the ground raise it back up again till you come to the point were the winch catches it and lower gently to the ground. Couple of things to watch out for but all easily overcome. More important safe well within working loads

Umm - who wants to volunteer their Ward to be put on it's side................................................ Thought not!

Nice idea though.

Umm - who wants to volunteer their Ward to be put on it's side................................................ Thought not!

 

Nice idea though.

Well volunteered mark :cool2:

Could use my scrap WLF but it's a bit far to drag it just for that!

Some interesting suggestions have come up. Thanks Andy for the offer of starting any pre-rig in advance. That allows us to do something a bit more involved.

I have a vision of doing a few 1- or 2-vehicle displays across the crowd line while the rest drive around. We could roll a scrap car over and back between two trucks. Ok, it doesn't show the full power on tap but is at least manageable and can be set up quickly and can be done quite close to the public with minimal risk. I like the idea of a zip wire too but I'm not sure how to make a safe display out of it in a flat arena.

Please note I am not just looking for things for the WW2 trucks to do, it would be great to get everyone involved, and that includes Shrek!

What about parking all the trucks up in a row with their back ends facing the crowd line and doing a synchronised lifting and swinging exercise, maybe with a spare wheel on each hook. It could be impressive if we got all the trucks involved and maybe park them in age order so the public can see the evolution of design? (Edit: those with non-power cranes had better start eating their Weetabix so they can keep up with the rest!)

- MG

Umm - who wants to volunteer their Ward to be put on it's side................................................ Thought not!

 

Nice idea though.

ye of little faith what you got doubts in operator or equipment

ye of little faith what you got doubts in operator or equipment

More a tendency of older trucks to become incontinent when tipped over - for example oil bath air cleaners etc. :shocked:

More a tendency of older trucks to become incontinent when tipped over - for example oil bath air cleaners etc. :shocked:

i did mention there are things to watch out for but all are easily over come. I was serious when i suggested it plus

it took into account the observations i made regards size movement safety.

I came across this, this evening- all you need is the panther :cool2:

OK so nobodies got the balls to let there pride and joy to be laid on it side no damage hows about stood on its end promise no damage. As a aside to this post there is a guy who travels to the truck shows and organises recovery demonstrations can put in touch if anybody interested

ye of little faith what you got doubts in operator or equipment

OK so nobodies got the balls to let there pride and joy to be laid on it side no damage hows about stood on its end promise no damage. As a aside to this post there is a guy who travels to the truck shows and organises recovery demonstrations can put in touch if anybody interested

Let me explain for those who think rolling a truck over is as simple as attaching a winch rope to it and pulling.

I spent 5 years as a heavy recovery operator, covering the M20 for the Police. My job was to deal with artic and rigid trucks when they fell over, jack-knifed or where involved in RTA's.

I am a qualified member of the IVR (Institute of Vehicle Recovery) and a Reci-mech Class II so I think I'm well within my rights to speak with some experience of this matter.

The biggest problem with rolling a vehicle off it's side and on to it's wheels is doing it without bending the chassis.

Any monkey can attach a winch rope to a vehicle and pull it over. That is why recovery operators use such things as air bags to relieve the stresses on the chassis.

Another issue is the wheels skipping when the truck is raise off the ground. The result of this is the wheels skip away and the truck falls back on to it's side with a rather loud bang, more often than not, causing considerable damage to the vehicle.

Another issue is where are you going to attach the winch rope to enable a roll-over to be completed. On a Ward for instance, there is nowhere on the body strong enough to take the strain of 14 tonnes being raised off the ground.

Let me explain.

The strop has to pass over the vehicle and attach to the chassis to enable the correct "roll-over" action to happen. If you attach directly to the chassis, all you will do is pull the truck along on it's side until something breaks.

I have no issues with my experience or my trucks capabilities but I would not want my Ward put on it's side for the reasons above.

Rolling a vehicle off it's side is fine if you're using a scrap vehicle for the exercise. That way it doesn't matter if you damage the vehicle in question.

I wouldn't try rolling anyone's pride and joy for an exercise, never mind using my own truck.

So, if anyone has a scrap vehicle then let it be known and happy days but I for one would not attempt to use someones pride and joy for the task - it has nothing to do with the size of my balls either!!!

Markheliops

Maybe Cosrec will volunteer his pride and joy for the exercise :goodidea:

Let me explain for those who think rolling a truck over is as simple as attaching a winch rope to it and pulling.

 

I spent 5 years as a heavy recovery operator, covering the M20 for the Police. My job was to deal with artic and rigid trucks when they fell over, jack-knifed or where involved in RTA's.

 

I am a qualified member of the IVR (Institute of Vehicle Recovery) and a Reci-mech Class II so I think I'm well within my rights to speak with some experience of this matter.

 

The biggest problem with rolling a vehicle off it's side and on to it's wheels is doing it without bending the chassis.

 

Any monkey can attach a winch rope to a vehicle and pull it over. That is why recovery operators use such things as air bags to relieve the stresses on the chassis.

 

Another issue is the wheels skipping when the truck is raise off the ground. The result of this is the wheels skip away and the truck falls back on to it's side with a rather loud bang, more often than not, causing considerable damage to the vehicle.

 

Another issue is where are you going to attach the winch rope to enable a roll-over to be completed. On a Ward for instance, there is nowhere on the body strong enough to take the strain of 14 tonnes being raised off the ground.

 

Let me explain.

 

The strop has to pass over the vehicle and attach to the chassis to enable the correct "roll-over" action to happen. If you attach directly to the chassis, all you will do is pull the truck along on it's side until something breaks.

 

I have no issues with my experience or my trucks capabilities but I would not want my Ward put on it's side for the reasons above.

 

Rolling a vehicle off it's side is fine if you're using a scrap vehicle for the exercise. That way it doesn't matter if you damage the vehicle in question.

 

I wouldn't try rolling anyone's pride and joy for an exercise, never mind using my own truck.

 

So, if anyone has a scrap vehicle then let it be known and happy days but I for one would not attempt to use someones pride and joy for the task - it has nothing to do with the size of my balls either!!!

 

Markheliops

i think you have answered all questions you have raised in your reply.

Nobody would be daft enough to volunteer a truck if they thought it would be damaged. hence that is why i suggested a ward le france. On the back of it is the superstructure that was designed to take all the loads that are fed into it when lifting slewing etc evenly safely back into the chassis. Instead of wraping straps around fragile bodywork one simply hang on to the superstructure high up a couple of tons pull would be more than enough to get it going towards the ground. once it got to the point of balance it would be arrested by the crane also fastened to the superstructure and lowered to the ground. if lowered till it looked like it was flatdown but no bodywork touching the floor the most load imposed would be about 5ton. this i would bet would be all lot lot less than the superstructure was designed to take in normal use.At no time in the exercise would the tyres skip as the would always have enough weight on them. although i would take the precaution of a couple ratchet straps on to stop the vehicle moving laterally with it having a transmission brake.

i was not being being frivolous when i suggested it and would not expect anyone to have a go at anything i would not try my self, So yes if i were lucky enough to own a fantastic piece of kit like a WLF i would do it

I'm not going to turn this into an argument as it is a thread about a recovery demonstration for War and Peace.

As my Ward Lafrance is MY Ward Lafrance, I do not wish to risk damaging it by having it turned on to it's side - END OF STORY!!!

My all means Cosrec - If you wish to purchase your own Ward Lafrance, then spend 7 years restoring it and thousands of pounds of your own money - feel free to do as you suggest.

Meanwhile, I will listen to the years of practical experience I have had righting 40 ton articulated lorries back on to their wheels.

Failing that, I shall refer to the various books I had to study to pass my written and practical exams in heavy commercial vehicle recovery.

I will then come to the same conclusion that it's not worth the risk of damaging my pride and joy just to entertain the crowd!

Markheliops

The old bedford they were playing with was a bent twisted wreck, im sure it hadnt always been dropped gently down like they demostrated!

Great thinking Mike.

I love watching the recovery trains at GDSF - that's always a crowd pleaser.....