Jump to content
  • 0

1940's Military vehicles on Non-Military plates


madrat

Question

Hi everyone,

I'm looking at a Scammell Pioneer just now, I'm quite confident its a military one and has a "ministry of supply" chassis plate on it. It is however stamped with a civilian style plate KYW 922, DVLA have no record of it and I presume it fell victim to the computer upgrade in 1999.

 

Should it have a "two numbers - two letters - two numbers" (eg. 55 BM 49) style plate in the early 1940's? Is there any explanation for this number plate, I have seen a number of other military vehicles with KYW plates, perhaps in some other MOD role?

 

Any advice or help appreciated,

 

Kind Regards,

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0
Ministry of Supply also provided vehicles for non military operations. I came across some old vehicles at DERA that were Ministry of Supply , but on civi plates.

 

Thanks Tony, is the "Ministry of supply" the same as the MOD? I understand that these Pioneer tank transporters weren't really used during the war and after the war many were converted to ballast tractors for towing.

 

Do you think it is possible it sat in a store unregistered for a couple of year before getting passed to some other department?

 

What would you describe as a "non military operation" in the late 1940's?

 

Sorry for all the questions, and thanks for your reply!

 

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I think that you will find that ex-military vehicles bought for civilian use in the post war years were simply given a current registration number, normally three numbers and three letters, or the other way around. The Q plate was introduced later, and then it became possible to have a date related number supplied, if you could satisfy the criteria.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I think that you will find that ex-military vehicles bought for civilian use in the post war years were simply given a current registration number, normally three numbers and three letters, or the other way around. The Q plate was introduced later, and then it became possible to have a date related number supplied, if you could satisfy the criteria.

 

The MoD did not introduce the two letters, two numbers, two letters system until after WW11.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thanks for the replies chaps!

 

I think that you will find that ex-military vehicles bought for civilian use in the post war years were simply given a current registration number

 

I'd agree 100% with that, this truck however has a three letters-three numbers civilian type number stamped into the Military plate, that makes me think it had that number when in service.

 

The MoD did not introduce the two letters, two numbers, two letters system until after WW11.

 

That's very interesting! Would pre-WW2 military vehicles have simply had a civilian type plate then? I half remember my old Pioneer had a number with an "H" prefix?

 

Cheers, Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Hello,

 

My dad has a QL that went into the army fire service after the war, and that has the civillian registration (juv 749) on the rebuild plate as you describe. Pre-war trucks also have civilian registrations but i'm not sure if it would have been on the plate. There is a book which gives the date a registration number was issued, that may give you a better idea when it was put on the truck in question.

 

Regards

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Hello,

 

My dad has a QL that went into the army fire service after the war, and that has the civillian registration (juv 749) on the rebuild plate as you describe. Pre-war trucks also have civilian registrations but i'm not sure if it would have been on the plate. There is a book which gives the date a registration number was issued, that may give you a better idea when it was put on the truck in question.

 

Regards

John

 

That's excellent John thanks, I don't suppose you might know what the registration book would be called? That would be a handy book to have in my collection!

 

Cheers, Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Perfectly timed question, I've been looking into information for my two Pioneers and can probably answer your queries. The army introduced the 2 number, 2 letter, 2 number system in 1949. Before that the Scammell would have had an H number and would have had a civvy registration number. The photos of Snow White (very early TRMU20) show it in France & North Africa with a civvy registration plate on the front. Very unusual to find but possible. I have a link at work to a site which might be able to help check.

 

The TRMU30's were used extensively in Africa and would still have been used going into Europe. There were never enough to meet demand. Some Scammell Pioneers were made for civilian use during this time but not sure what contracts they would have been on.

 

Would be interested to see any photos and info on the one you are looking at.

 

Cheers

Ed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Supply The vehicles I knew were a pair of Bedford RS (Disiel engined 4x4 RL) dated 1957, they were supplied for range test vehicles, subsequently parked up for sonar testing. As for non military , military projects, the very obvious one was the A Bomb, most work was done by 'Civillian reserchers'. For some reason the letters SVL come to mind in the registartion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

YW registration numbers were issued by London County Council

This would probably mean that it went into some Government run department

As an example XO (London CC) was issued to NFS wartime vehicles in much the same way that XF was issued to post war AFS vehicles

The sequence (very simply) of Army registartions were

Pre War CivilianReg numbers some from ME series again Middlesex

From late 1930,s a cencus number prefixed with a letter denoting th eclass of vehicle T for Tank or carrier, H for Tractor and so on

From 1949 the two number two letters two numbers sequence The sequence XA-ZY were used to denote wartime vehicles, the sequence RA-RZ (excluding RN) were used to denote rebuilt wartime vehicles still serving

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thanks everyone, John I found a copy of the number plate book you are referring too and put a bid in on ebay! That would be a useful book to have!

 

Edd, thanks for your message, I remember my old Pioneer had an "H" number. Good to know that there is nothing unusual about the chassis plate and hopefully a record could be found. I was a bit worried it might not have been a military one but that sounds unlikely, especially if you think they were in good demand!

 

Interesting to know where they were used, I'm fascinated by this kind of stuff, and any links you might have would be greatly welcomed. I belive the tank transporters were almost useless for the heavy tanks that were around when the finally came along? What else would they have been used for? I see a number that have been converted to ballast tractors.

 

Tony, thanks for the insight! I guess the history would be harder to trace if the vehicles were used for something non-military or classified! Fascinating stuff....

 

Bernard, Thanks! Do you know any of Forceful's history? What did he do at FVRDE?

 

Brooky, thanks for the insight! Excellent information! I've seen a few "RN" numbers and that's great to know the meaning!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

HI

 

THE use of civilian numbers predates the second world war batches of civilian number were allocated to the ministry

of supply the 2 numbers 2letters 2numbers came in to use 1947/48 before this it was the cenus type if the vehicle you

mentioned after this time it shoud have had a new number ie RGX978 BECAME60 EP57 THEN 47 AN O3 BEFORE ANYONE SAY about this Iknow this a ANTAR to things may have happened one it was sold before 1948 two it was with a MOS department one trmu /ballast was at marchwood in1958 used to tow landing craft up the slipway it still had a MOS civiy

number to the matter I have all the chertsey vehicle details so if it was there before 1989 i will have its details also

Ihave details of 40,000 sales vehicles from 1945 till 1948/49 if ican help you all i need is the year of it been sold not where and you never know Imay have it

 

regards wally

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Bernard, Thanks! Do you know any of Forceful's history? What did he do at FVRDE?

 

 

Secret stuff mostly :-D.... dunno but probably general recovery/towing duties. Then went to Larkhill with a large pointy snowplough fitted, then a short rest in Mr Keith Gott's shed, then to me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
The MoD did not introduce the two letters, two numbers, two letters system until after WW11.

 

Post 1947, when this numbering system came in, started BA for the Army. Vehicles already in service were numbered from the end of the alphabet. For example, my 1944 Ford WOA2 has the serial M4956508 and also the 1947 reg of 79YG18 as it was still in service until the 1950s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I have details of 40,000 sales vehicles from 1945 till 1948/49

 

Thanks Wally, those records are an amazing thing! I don't know much I'm afraid and not a sale date. What I do know is its chassis number 5177, reg KYW 922, from contract S1887 (15th December 1942, quantity of 178 vehicles) but not sure if that helps track down any info!

 

 

Those Ministry of Supply plates were fitted after the war, so I would be pretty sure that your Pioneer was transfered from the Army to a government establishment in the late 40's/early 50's as the two prototype Ferrets were registered KYW49 and KYW50, so it was registered after them.

 

Thanks Richard, that's interesting to know. I've seen a few other KYW plates and would agree with the dates you are suggesting. Thanks for the information!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

There is quite a handy website detailing reg. no. issue

 

http://www.oldclassiccar.co.uk/registrations/yw.htm

 

KYW appears to have been a London C.C. series issued February 1950 - on.

 

The time taken to issue blocks can vary. Series used for private cars could be gone in a month. Others seem to have been used for years, perhaps because they had been block-issued to a particular dealer or agency.

 

Unfortunately, there seems to be no surviving detail of the Middlesex area numbers issued pre-war on War Department vehicles. I assume that large blocks were issued and the records held separately, perhaps for security reasons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
HI again

as numbers appear to be possible CHERTSEY allocations IWILL start to look for you but in my lists of registrations kyw was

LONDON the contract helps will let you know what I find out if you wish

regards wally

 

Hi Wally, that's very kind of you to offer looking. I've not yet bought the truck so why don't you hold off for now, and if I do buy it I would get in touch. I'd certainly be very grateful for your help,

 

Kind Regards,

Duncan

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
HI

 

THE use of civilian numbers predates the second world war batches of civilian number were allocated to the ministry

of supply the 2 numbers 2letters 2numbers came in to use 1947/48 before this it was the cenus type if the vehicle you

mentioned after this time it shoud have had a new number ie RGX978 BECAME60 EP57 THEN 47 AN O3 BEFORE ANYONE SAY about this Iknow this a ANTAR to things may have happened one it was sold before 1948 two it was with a MOS department one trmu /ballast was at marchwood in1958 used to tow landing craft up the slipway it still had a MOS civiy

number to the matter I have all the chertsey vehicle details so if it was there before 1989 i will have its details also

Ihave details of 40,000 sales vehicles from 1945 till 1948/49 if ican help you all i need is the year of it been sold not where and you never know Imay have it

 

regards wally

 

Since 2007 I have been researching the war time and early post war history of the Royal Enfield WD Models, so I was obviously very interested in these post war sales reports. I have contacted Wally Dugan, and he has been most friendly and very helpful in filtering the Enfields out of these lists for me. Thanks Wally, much appreciated!

 

Regards,

Jan

Edited by rewdco
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Answer this question...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...