RB44 FFR radios and equipment ? help needed and pictures please

@ Ian - I think you are partly right - there is a filter unit on the front LHS which uses the ARFAT support plate hence my feeling that BMETS only had one 353 installed. However the front LHS external antenna support has been used and is fed by cables from the cab. I believe that this is the remnants of a GPS system or the tracking unit for the radio sonde. Although the BMETS system is actually a commercial system with some encryption, I doubt I will be able to get anything. The antenna for BMETS is a strange solid square thing that is ground mounted and independent of the vehicle. I have seen a BMETS picture which shows a fairly heavy YAGI on the top of the mast, but I am planning to use it mainly as a support for HF wire antennas. I may well use the rear RHS antenna support for an HF whip and connect that either to a 320 or the 321 using a TURF mounted in the vicinity. Much like you I am interested in the radio side and to a certain extent using the truck as a platform for this. M6 at the moment, 2E0 exam coming up in a fortnight!@ Ferret - it is a surprisingly flimsy office cabinet with about an A4 footprint and slightly more than A4 high. It is lockable but definitely not something that would be used to house classified documents as its construction is no stronger than a filing cabinet. I'll photograph mine tomorrow.@Majorweld - I'll drop you a PM about how the bits go together and post some photos here to help. As far as I know BATES is not completely stand alone as it receives information from sources like BMETS to assist in the calculations needed for indirect fire. What I don't know is how this information is disseminated. It may be that the information about this and fire missions is passed through a radio data link and then entered manually by the operator or it could be that the information goes directly into the BATES kit itself. The computer itself is probably programmed to carry out the calculations independently, and I know that there is a button type keyboard which is used rather than a QWERTY. Each button represents a gun and when you press it it calculates the parameters for that gun.

Richard2

The 321 TURF does the same antenna matching job for HF radio as the TUUAM for VHF (although it requires manual adjustment - the manufacturer offered an automatic tuner for the 321 but it was never adopted by the British army). The correct options for a 321 in a vehicle are

321 > BNC Cable > TURF 25W > Wire > Base No 31 via centre screw connection

321 > BNC Cable > SURF 25W > BNC Cable > TURF 25W > Wire > Base No 31 via centre screw connection

321 > BNC + 12 Way cables > Amp 250W > BNC + 12 Way Cables > TURF 250W > Wire > Base No 31 via centre screw connection

321 > BNC Cable > SURF 25W > BNC cable (and 12 way from 321) > Amp 250W > BNC + 12 Way Cables > TURF 250W > Wire > Base No 31 via centre screw connection

In all cases the tuner can be used when static with a dipole or similar antenna fed via the coax socket on the front of the tuner, nearly always with better results.

The SURF allows multiple 321s to be co-sited and use closer frequencies than would otherwise be possible without mutual interference. It loses some transmit power and receive sensitivity and adds extra tuning steps after each frequency change so is best bypassed even if fitted unless it is actually needed.

There is no ARFAT (Adapter Radio Frequency Antenna Tuner) counterpart for the HF radios - it is only there to adapt the Racal TUUAM to the Marconi 353 which is capable of higher power than the Racal 351/352 it was designed for. The entire 321/322 system came from MEL and was designed to work as a set.

If the Clansman sets were used for teleprinter traffic with a Trend dot-matrix teleprinter or a Larkspur-era Siemens T100 the Adapter Telegraph Radio (ATR) was used as the modem and a separate 24V to 240V inverter was used to power the teleprinter.

I don't know anything about BATES specifically but I would have thought it doubtful that any pre-1980 system would have been based on similar principles to Wi-Fi or Bowman - probably more like cellphone short message service in concept with the central BATES acting as the base station and the gun or battery level stations with data entry devices acting as mobiles. It was written up in 1981 as an IEE (now IET) technical paper if someone feels like paying out for a reprint:

http://digital-library.theiet.org/content/journals/10.1049/ep.1981.0266?crawler=true

The best description I have found in the open literature is

http://nigelef.tripod.com/fc_computer.htm#BATES

which implies that most BATES installations were in FV432 family vehicles and older than the RB44 - he refers to LACS as a newer lightweight version sharing much of the software.

Regards

Iain

very very interesting , mind boggling , but interesting . many thanks all

Super excited , found this pic of my truck on the facebook rb44 clubs page in action , looking sweet with lots aerials .

Ah thank you very much for the Pictures. Now i understand, that this is not the field chest which was originally planned to be in there. Looks like a small safe, but you are telling that it is not very strong constructed?

It is pretty flimsy - it is made to the standard of a normal office locker or filing cabinet . Handy to stop stuff falling around though

Now the BATES system is obsolete , do you think it would be possible to get the software that BATES operated on , just for simulation /display etc ?

Does anyone know the pin diagram for the 7 pin connector from the ARFAT to the TUAM ? I'm wondering if all the pins are used and I can use six core rather than eight with one cut off.

Richard

Richard

I don't think it uses as many as six cores - I do have the pin out somewhere & will check

Iain

73 de G0OZS

Thanks Iain - 7-2-12c and the 8 core equivalent seems very expensive but I'm struggling to find ready made cables that will make a neat job. Any ideas on suppliers that will sell by the metre?

Richard

For new cable probably best to use 8 core computer data cable (ethernet) which is available as shielded or unshielded. But I suspect NOS Clansman cables will be cheaper (try gten98 on e-Bay).

In the specific case of the TUUAM to ARFAT cable the ARFAT schematic in EMER Tels L212 says only the following pins are used:

B: Silent Tune

C: +28V

E: 0V / Ground

F: Tuner Key

So you could probably get away with a screened 4-core cable. The usual general electronics suppliers (Rapid, Farnell, RS, Maplin) in order of rising cost will have something by the drum but I think only Maplin offer per metre prices. Try Maplin Multicore 4 way screened XR25C at £1.89/metre.

Iain

73 de G0OZS

Thanks Iain - I've tried NOS but it seems difficult to get the length. The RB44 wasn't that common and I'm adapting the fit a little so the best solution seems to be to make up cables that I can fix in place to make it neat. I was stunned at the cost of cable - £80 for 25m ! although this would be more than enough and I could probably recoup some of the cost by selling the remainder. The RG58 is easier and cheaper.I suppose in the overall cost of the project I'm being a little oversensitive but I thought I'd see whether there were cheaper options.RegardsRichard

Richard

What length do you need ? - if you can wait I'll have a look in the garage at the weekend and I may have a drum of 4 core screened and can cut enough off for you - or if you are happy for 4 pair UTP data cable (8 core grey unscreened) I can do you a used coil of 10 metres or so for postage cost if I find it

Regards

Iain

Also, Graeme at PTS Norfolk has the original 6 core + screen cable priced per metre

http://www.ptsnorfolk.co.uk/100820/info.php?p=4&pid=5452443&ack=9

Regards

Iain

Many thanks Iain - I'll be in the shed again on Saturday so will measure up. Cheers. Richard

Hi Iain. - having stripped out and recycled some of the unused cables I only needed to make up two coax leads. I think it's working as it tunes up and low power transmission gets the red light going. Only thing is that there is a permanent mechanical sound which I think may be the fan. A bit noisier than I expected - however I have no direct experience to compare. There wasn't anything on 6m tonight so difficult to tell whether every thing was ok. Will take it to the radio club tomorrow (Intermediate test night) and see how we do.

Cheers

Richard

Richard

First of all good luck with the intermediate test !

The 353 always makes some fan and motor noise - it's nothing to what you get with the test switch in 'override' position and the fans on full blast however.

Finding FM traffic on a 25KHz channel the 353 will tune to is difficult without prior arrangement given that the band plan is based on 20KHz channels - locally here in East Anglia most traffic is on GB3EF (51.720MHz) - close enough to monitor with squelch off. Wide mode without tone gets rid of the tone squelch and will hear most things albeit with low audio levels.

The GB3MCB Mid Cornwall 4M beacon (70.025MHz) may be a viable test source even if it's not an FM signal - it should at least be detected as a carrier.

Iain

73 de G0OZS

Thanks Iain . Staged a test with a friend this evening and after a couple of hiccups established very clear Comms. The initial problem was that I could hear but as soon as I keyed the pressel it squeaked and howled through the handset. Turning the engine on to get full volts cured it and contact clear at 5 watts. I need to look carefully at the batteries as the do not seem to hold a charge.

Exam went OK - think I did enough to pass so waiting for RSGB to moderate and let me know.

Cheers

R

according to my trucks notice board , the last exercise it was used for was the Royal Artillerys TARTAN BLIZZARD at the OTTERBURN ranges in 2005 ..........

Is there anyone from the RA that remembers a RB44 , reg no 99KJ58 ??

Hi All, I just found this thread with wonderful pictures of a kitted

Comms Body for Rb44.

Myself I have a Rb44 with Comms Body that was kitted out for BMETS- Battlefield Meterological System.

And also for this type there were two different layouts in one regiment. BMETS were used two vehicles each Artillery regiment.Mine was for example with 3RHA here in Hohne, Germany.

Pictured here is one of a few BATES fittings. Battlefield Artillery Target Engagement System.

Means that is was a Artillery Command Post.

Main feature of this was the BATES terminal (Ruggedised Computer) which is mounted on the table with the slides.

The messages were then fed into the system via VHF connection. In this case 353s with DMUs.

BATES cabins had different numbers of antennaes, so you can distinguish different versions.

BATES was also installed in 432s, but just in armoured regiments. The rb44s were used for light gun regiments.

So that is how i see the story.

 

By the case , I am always searching for parts that fit into the cabin, as mine was stripped almost completly.

If anyone has something to offer?

 

Thanks for the pics.

Would it be possible to get closer pictures of the notices on the MAPBOARD?

 

Best Regards

Uwe

Cheers UWE

heres a pic of the notice board for you , as far as I can deduce its from the last exercise it was used for at Otterdown ranges , Exercise tartan blizzard in 2005 . , have you any more info on the ruggerised computer that sat on the rubber mounted rails ? pics ? cheers:)

I have a aquired a LXi ruggerised laptop but that doesn't fit

 

(Snip)

 

I don't know anything about BATES specifically but I would have thought it doubtful that any pre-1980 system would have been based on similar principles to Wi-Fi or Bowman - probably more like cellphone short message service in concept with the central BATES acting as the base station and the gun or battery level stations with data entry devices acting as mobiles. It was written up in 1981 as an IEE (now IET) technical paper if someone feels like paying out for a reprint:

 

http://digital-library.theiet.org/content/journals/10.1049/ep.1981.0266?crawler=true

 

 

Regards

 

Iain

I've looked at the IET paper and it's not very helpful, mainly because most of it is written in the future tense!

Andy

I've looked at the IET paper and it's not very helpful, mainly because most of it is written in the future tense!

 

Andy

Cheers for that Andy . ill keep searching

I'd be very interested in any progress on this as I'm in the process of buying an ex-BMETS RB44 myself!

Andy