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Okay it looks like we have fixed a few more air leaks on the thing, she is running a treat after the kind David Crouch supplied me with the spare relays. The guys who were fitting the hydrogen system blew out the cab electrics, all fixed now.

 

it holds some air for up to 3 or four days now...however I still think we are leaking air via one of the brake units...anyone know how to check these...the leak must be tiny as we cannot hear a thing...

 

Andy just has to do a small bit of body work to her and she will be perfect...

 

I have two pallets, one is partially adapted as the MTLB carrier, we are going to do a couple more changes that will mean we can simply drive on and it stays on without chains etc...we will bolt it at the front which will mean it is fixed solid and then add an emergency restraint at the back just in case of catastrophic failure of the front holding device...

 

the second bed we are going to adapt with a complete flat bed wire mesh inbetween the main beams and this will be used for general loads....its the 10 ton body but we are strengthening it so it will easily take 15 tons...

 

I plan to get another body so that I fit it up to carry the 432 or 434, as well as other tracked vehicles...will be off to see Dave in a few weeks to collect..

 

then need to restore the weeks trailer, only cosmetics. All running gear lights and brakes already done I am thinking of removing the mechanical winch and other bits and pieces which should give me an additional 300 kgs of load. its only a 14.3 ton trailer and we guess the trailer is 3.5 tons, we have not weighed it yet, so it can carry 10.8 tons...the extra 300 kgs should then give me enough leeway to carry an 11 ton load. although I then have to be careful what I have on the foden or daf as I May go over my weight limit...

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You are doing well if it is holding air a few hours so 3 days is exceptional. I have spent many hours trying to find leaks on these trucks and never seem to pin-point them, rear couplings if rubber perished, unions all over the place mainly hidden behind looms and other crap. it really can be anywhere on them.

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I think as long as they comply and are driven responsibly they should cope quite well! All the M151's fall over when you go round corners dont you know:-\

 

 

Driven Sensibly..............is that the driver of the DROPS truck or the driver of the car who cuts across you on a roundabout and makes you take evasive action

 

Yes M151's fall over as do Land Rovers (ask me how I know) as will any vehicle when the centre of gravity steps outside the base line

But a high centre of gravity (432 on a Foden drops) has got to be increasing the risk, the question is by how much.

 

Did the army ever carry 432's on DROPS???????????

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have seen many many 432's loaded on a drops. no matter how you look at it the drops platfrom is high and the centre of gravity therefore high...so care is needed when driving a drops. it is too easy to go hurtling along at 43 mph and then overtake a ferrari at speed and cut in and lose your load all over the said ferrari. Joking aside,

 

the load limits for all axles is 11tons approximately and with a 432 on the rear the loading of just 13 tons will not overload any of the axles. she is designed for 32 and a half tons but in UK can only take 32 tons. As she is, with a full load positioned on the bed spread across evenly, she carries some 65% on the rear two axles and the remaining 35% on the front two axles. A 432 would spread the load evenly as she is fairly balanced across her tracks.

 

So total poppy cock that is it a problem for a drops to carry them...the only reason I can see why a drops is not used by the army is because it only carries one and there are no specific pallets for it, where as a low loader will carry two for the same journey cost. ie one or two drivers and the same fuel and time taken, for two 432's deliverred, where as the drops is just one per journey. And the DROPS off road perfromance is not needed when delivering a 432 which will go further on its own than the DROPS would do off road..no brainer,

 

So anyone who thinks a DROPS wont carry or cant carry a 432 is in cloud cuckoo land. its within UK regs and perfectly safe..if driven carfully, just like any truck.....just warn ferraris I may come past then at 43 mph and swerve violently.

 

Anyway she is running sweet now, only annoying thing is the leak I get from the front hub from that brass pressure release valve, cant seem to make it stop...damn annoying...

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Driven Sensibly..............is that the driver of the DROPS truck or the driver of the car who cuts across you on a roundabout and makes you take evasive action

 

Yes M151's fall over as do Land Rovers (ask me how I know) as will any vehicle when the centre of gravity steps outside the base line

But a high centre of gravity (432 on a Foden drops) has got to be increasing the risk, the question is by how much.

 

Did the army ever carry 432's on DROPS???????????

 

No they didnt - they were specifically directed not to. 43 series were too heavy, were wider than the flatrack, had too high a centre of gravity (particularly important when loading/unloading) and could not effectively be restrained.

 

I am pretty sure the subject was done to death on another thread, with a number of ex military drivers confirming all the above.

 

As for stability well that isn't a MMLC DROPS strong point either, and the vehicle was hard pressed to meet the stability standard during the trials (in fact one decided to have a lie down at Chertsey in front of many many VIPs....). This was due to the desire to keep the overall width within C&U regs whilst coping with the need to have wheels of a size to meet mobility standards and the imposition of both a load handling system and the flatrack all of which pushed the C of G up.

 

Both MMLC and IMMLC were designed and developed specifically for the task of ammunition resupply (and nothing else) where the load was ULC (unit load containers) with a C of G of 20 inches or so above the base spread evenly across the flatrack and restrained in a particular (and rather peculiar) way. Thus the net C of G was half way down the rack and 20 inches above it. At that point both vehicles just scraped by when it came to max permissible axle weights for UK (the total load with 10 155mm ULCs was 14 tonne). A 432 is more than 14 tonne and its C of G is quite different being, as I recall, higher and quite a lot further forward. QED.

 

Because of the obvious need to carry other stuff from time to time each and every different load had to be worked out, tested and the results, including the restraint scheme and specific safety precautions, put into a publication called JSP 71 (which had originally been for loading aircraft, rail wagons and helicopters).

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432's fully combat loaded are just over 15 tons, which I guess includes 10 to 13 soldiers, empty it is around 13 tons....sure someone can look in the book.

 

I had two stalwarts on the DROPS and sweeks once and I am sure if we were driving like a loon we could have toppled the lot...I didnt and we journeyed 500 miles without problems...

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432's fully combat loaded are just over 15 tons, which I guess includes 10 to 13 soldiers, empty it is around 13 tons....sure someone can look in the book.

 

I had two stalwarts on the DROPS and sweeks once and I am sure if we were driving like a loon we could have toppled the lot...I didnt and we journeyed 500 miles without problems...

 

 

Surely the issue here is "Is the load and the vehicle safe"

 

As you say you wernt driving "like a loon" however it does not matter how well you drive it depends on how inherently stable the vehicle is and how it will react in an emergency situation (i.e. when someone else is "driving like a loon")

I have been lucky to have had training in vehicle roll overs (the artic with the stabilisers on) and we were getting a laden standard artic into roll over situations at as low as 5mph, on a level dry road.

 

Like I said earlier a vehicle falls over (as does anything else for that matter) when the CofG steps out of its baseline, this is a law of physics

 

The higher a vehicle is and the higher the load the more likely it is to fall over, why do you think most plant is carried on low loaders??

 

I therefore conclude that a DROPS truck loaded with a 43 series vehicle has a higher centre of gravity than it was designed for and is therefore more dangerous to take on the road

 

Please let me know when and where you plan to take it out I will then plan to steer well clear!!

 

A more serious thought though is that a double deck trailer (designed to have a high centre of gravity and with electronic stability control and EBS braking) owned by the firm I worked for fell over on a roundabout

 

It wasnt until they pulled it upright they found the Nissan Micra underneath it with the dead 18 year old female driver still at the wheel

Edited by Brooky
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If you are referring to the picture that is a CVRT not a 432 and the truck is one of the trials scammels - in fact it is the scammel IMMLC (the one that lost out to the foden) - 6 wheels - not a MMLC - 8 wheels.

 

The location is Crocker Barracks Sennelager and the date is about 1982 during which time we were scoping other possible tasks (other than ammo resupply).

 

And just for the record I was both the OC of the DROPS Trials and Training Team that both developed the system and brought it into service and more latterly the person responsible for JSP 71 relating to DROPS. Oh and I have done one or two other things since then.

 

When it comes to the public inquiry and when we in the military vehicle world are being hauled over the coals by a zealous VOSA feel free to call on me as an expert witness.............

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Oh here we go, was waiting for this, those who know it all have all the right answers because they were there and they did it.

 

Expert witness are the people who put quite a few innocent people in prison. I am not sure that they have much credibility anymore..they dont see the wood just the trees and their evidence is generally fogged with their own prejudices and inclinations...I think I see where you fall..

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For the hub leak it will leak if overfilled and also if are driven distance at speed due to the increase in pressure, we get a lot of trucks in the workshop with this and they always leave with nothing but a wipe over with a rag.

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Oh here we go, was waiting for this, those who know it all have all the right answers because they were there and they did it.

 

Expert witness are the people who put quite a few innocent people in prison. I am not sure that they have much credibility anymore..they dont see the wood just the trees and their evidence is generally fogged with their own prejudices and inclinations...I think I see where you fall..

 

I think the Expression "theres non so blind as those that don,t want to see" rings true here

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For the record I think we should all be seeking the right answers, even if they are not what we might want to hear. Responsible ownership and operation is of course an individual responsibility, but no-one can doubt the effect on the wider movement of anything different.

 

Furthermore I may still have an inclination to bullsh*t once in a while, but I handed all the "poppy cock" back to the stores a long time ago, and in terms of DROPS safe operation I am remarkably current.

 

Anyway I am not going to prolong the debate any longer - I've said what needs to be said. As they used to say on Hill Street Blues - be careful out there.

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How true!!!!! ^^^^^^^

 

A thought is this combination (wagon and drag) tested and plated??

If my memory serves the gross weight of DROPS and trailer is around 50tonnes (OK when the emilitary operate them)

 

The maximum weight under testing and plating for a 6 axle combination (on road friendly suspension) is 44 tonnes

So if it is plated at 44tonnes what is its unladen weight and therefore what can it carry?????

Gross weight less the unladen weight

Edited by Brooky
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How true!!!!! ^^^^^^^

 

A thought is this combination (wagon and drag) tested and plated??

If my memory serves the gross weight of DROPS and trailer is around 50tonnes (OK when the emilitary operate them)

 

The maximum weight under testing and plating for a 6 axle combination (on road friendly suspension) is 44 tonnes

So if it is plated at 44tonnes what is its unladen weight and therefore what can it carry?????

Gross weight less the unladen weight

 

As I have posted before, it cannot be used at 44t:

 

1 Must have RFS on drive/trailer axles

2 Each vehicle must have at least 3 axles

3 Engine must be Euro 2 or above

4 Drive wheels must be doubles not singles

 

IIRC the original DAF DROPS was submitted for testing with a larger tyre which was rejected due to CoG problems.

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As I have posted before, it cannot be used at 44t:

 

1 Must have RFS on drive/trailer axles

2 Each vehicle must have at least 3 axles

3 Engine must be Euro 2 or above

4 Drive wheels must be doubles not singles

 

IIRC the original DAF DROPS was submitted for testing with a larger tyre which was rejected due to CoG problems.

 

 

Mike

Didnt say it could be used at 44 tonnes

Only pointed out what the C&U regs say, and to me it is obvious that DROPS dont comply

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I work with 38 tons....I used to think it was 40 but I cant confirm that these days...under current regs wide wheels over 300mm count as double wheels...

 

I have heard that teh drops was intend for the bigger wheels but became even more unstable...

 

I have never turned my DROPS over...However I guess if its possible to induce a roll in a normal vehicle at 5 mph it cant be that difficult to induce a roll in a top heavy off roading DROPS truck loaded with a 432...mind you not seen as many roll overs on drops as I have on the foden wreckers, now they are top heavy..

 

perhaps they need to be banned and eradicated from history they must be so dangerous...sorry guys but we all know there are risks in driving anything, i dont use my truck for hauling thousands of miles every day its used to take the mtlb to shows, once last year twice this year...total of less than 1000 miles, it has had more service hours than it has been on the road...

 

I am just glad that it holds air..although I think the hand brake is leaking some too as it drops a bit of air once this is applied, will check that over too now...maybe that is the final source of leaks causing it to loase any air at all...wouldnt that be good, no air leaks on DROPs..

 

.and I have a fix for my diff leaking...there are two types of pressure relief valves 8 and 12 psi, I have the 8 ones so will replace with the 12's. well done Clive...

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I had one leaky vent in the front axle, it dripped out all the time after correctly topping up the oil.

I swapped the two vents over, the problem was with the vent valve. I managed to get 2 new vent valves with the correct NSN so I assume they were they correct rating, the new ones were just as bad! Fixed it by a very small smear of hylomar on the inside of the vent. If the pressure gets too high it will soon blow off the excess.

Mine only holds a bit of air overnight and is slow to build up pressure, I had loads of small leaks from the small 1/4" push fits around the vehicle and have slowly replaced them, the orings inside the pushfits were very hard and just crumbled so I have had to source new ones.

More leak finding will follow, I use a garden weedkiller spray and fill it with soapy water, then spray over things and look for the bubbles!

 

Good luck

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When I was a novice driver doing DROPS familiarization on the driving ranges at Salsbury, we had one of the novice drivers roll his drops driving in a tank trap with only a simulated load of concrete blocks. He had not taken it too high up the incline driving out off the tank trap to achieve the roll !!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

It left the truck and load on its side with a tide line of the silt exactly halving the cab. Pulled out it had a very unique look to the field applied camo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Nige

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