Valentine Archer tank destroyer

Hi guys

 

Is there an expert on the Archer out there, ot maybe a Valentine fan who knows their stuff?

 

Apart from the usual Wiki page a few sites with minimal tech data theres very little about

 

I anticipation, thanks

 

Martyn

Not many Archer experts left I should think! John Pearson is the man for Valentine though and I have a full set of manuals for Archer, Service Instruction Book, Workshop manual and Armament Pamphlet.

Edited January 6, 2011 by Adrian Barrell

Known Archer survivors are at Bovington, Wheatcroft (ex-Israeli), Overloon & Soesterberg (Holland), Latrun, Batey ha-Osef & Yad Mordechai (Israel) & Ahmednagar (India)

David Fletcher at the Tank Museum, davidf@tankmuseum.org

 

I also believe there is a volunteer helping restoring one of the Valentines at the TM, who has done extensive research on the vehicle.

 

What is the question you are wanting to know?

hi martyn

here's the surviving valentine list, can you tell us why the interest in valentines ?

 

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Valentines.pdf

 

eddy

David Fletcher at. . .

 

Please do not copy e-mail addresses on the forum. Spam bots wil track them and start sending spam. Use a PM to share that kind of information.

 

Thanks,

Hanno

(moderator on MLU Forum)

Aprt from the location of the steering levers, the mechanics of an Archer are identical to a late mark Valentine like mine. What do you need to know?

Hi guys

 

Thanks for the responce; my interest is a new Archer kit thats come out with full interior, engine etc...wanted to check the accuracy. Barbarossa books do a couple of cheap publications on the interior/exterior of the Valentine (£3 each) so I may get those.

 

I'd like to know what the conversion entailed; simply remove the turret and a chunk of the hull and stick a 17pdr on backwards or more thought involved than that?

 

Why operated by RA...was that the norm for all SPG's?

 

Will download the Shaddock list later thanks I didn't find that with my search.

 

I've heard that the kits wheels are too small but if the 665 vehicles that were built were on a mix of old chassis was there a potential for a variety of wheel types...anybody got any data on Valentine wheels...sizes...pics etc?

 

Adrian; how do i get in touch with John P and how much info is in the manuals you have...too much to scan I bet ( being cheeky and all)?

 

Martyn

Hi guys

 

Why operated by RA...was that the norm for all SPG's?

 

 

Adrian; how do i get in touch with John P and how much info is in the manuals you have...too much to scan I bet ( being cheeky and all)?

 

Martyn

 

 

SP Anti tank guns were always RA kit.

 

See above! Yes, a lot of pages but I'll have a look through and give you an idea of pictures. I'll be happy to scan the ones you need.

 

Adrian

John Pearson is the valentine expert he will help.

Al

Kevin Wheatcroft has two Archers,the first has its original armament (17 pdr) and the other had some larger bore barrel thrown in it.Not sure if they are both there now though !

 

 

 

Rob...................rnixartillery.

I thought the other tube was an M7 3" from an M10, same bore but certainly just thrown in the mount!

Hi guys

 

Thanks for the responce; my interest is a new Archer kit thats come out with full interior, engine etc...wanted to check the accuracy. Barbarossa books do a couple of cheap publications on the interior/exterior of the Valentine (£3 each) so I may get those.

 

I have this kit, there is no engine, but a transmission, fans and radiators and a complete fighting compartment The interior is quite different to the Valentine, the fighting compartment is open and has to provide space for stowing the ammunition.

 

I'd like to know what the conversion entailed; simply remove the turret and a chunk of the hull and stick a 17pdr on backwards or more thought involved than that?

 

The real thing was developed in around nine months, so I'm guessing there was not much more to the process than you suggest, mounting the gun and relocating the driver's seat, which is much higher (and he has a sort of roof!)

 

Why operated by RA...was that the norm for all SPG's?

 

Yes, all SPGs were operated by the RA

 

I've heard that the kits wheels are too small but if the 665 vehicles that were built were on a mix of old chassis was there a potential for a variety of wheel types...anybody got any data on Valentine wheels...sizes...pics etc?

 

I'm not sure if the Archer (which was not the official name) was built on old hulls or were all new builds, I suspect the latter. The British Army had these in the inventory till the mid-50s, though both Egypt and Jordan has some, the former providing the ones in Israel.

 

Incidentally, the maker's plate on the vehicles on display in Israel have "Valentine (Carrier)" as the name.

 

The Bronco kit uses the MiniArt hull and suspension, and there are reports of an issue with the MiniArt wheels, Accurate Armour do a couple different styles in resin.

 

Hope this helps

 

jch

Hi John

 

Do you know if the Archer was based on new build or redundant Valentines? If the latter I've heard that there were several styles/sizes of the bogey wheels you any info on that score? May explain the feeling that the wheels are too small

 

Pics of the wheels would be good...various types?

 

You any photos of the engine compartment seeing as I've just found theres no engine in the kit?

 

Ta

Martyn

JCH

 

[not sure if the Archer (which was not the official name) was built on old hulls or were all new builds, I suspect the latter]...new builds with so may redundant hulls available? or were they?

 

[The Bronco kit uses the MiniArt hull and suspension, and there are reports of an issue with the MiniArt wheels, Accurate Armour do a couple different styles in resin.]...I've heard about the wheels and AA say the Archer had a 'late special dish pattern made especially for the Archer' Maybe an error using MiniArts Valentine hull without changing the wheels?

 

Whats the story with the .30 cal I thought the secondary wpn was a Bren although I did read somewhere else a BESA?

 

Thanks for the info

 

Martyn

Valentine 17pdr SPs (not archer- made up name) were new build 655 out of 800 completed the hulls were specific to the SP having thinner side armour, 20mm, than the comtemporary MkIX,X at 43mm- this was a common ploy in Valentine design to save weight against heavier armament, MkII gun tanks had 60mm side amrour MkIII and V had 50mm and later maks had 43mm.

 

The personel armament of the SPG was a Bren and a 2inch mortar- there seems to be no specific stowage for Stens although they must have been stowed somewhere or guard duty would be impossible!

 

Steve

jchinuk

The British Army had these in the inventory till the mid-50s, though both Egypt and Jordan has some, the former providing the ones in Israel.

 

I'd like to see some in service evidence for Valentine 17pdr SPGs in Jordanian service -it is well recorded that Eygpt had them and lost some dug in on the sinia-gaza border but Eygpt also had Valentines -mostly used for training and OP work by 1956 but allowed them to have a logistic line for working with "archer".

 

Steve

Some photo's of the Bovington Archer have just been posted on the Missing Lynx site ( http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/thread/1294364167/Valentine+Archer+%28large+pics%29 ), and a review of the Bronco kit can be found here http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/bronco/cb35074.html .

Hi John

 

Do you know if the Archer was based on new build or redundant Valentines? If the latter I've heard that there were several styles/sizes of the bogey wheels you any info on that score? May explain the feeling that the wheels are too small

 

Pics of the wheels would be good...various types?

 

You any photos of the engine compartment seeing as I've just found theres no engine in the kit?

 

Ta

Martyn

 

I think the build details of real Archers requires further research :embarrassed:

 

The problem with the wheels is going to be that currently preserved vehicles are restored (so might any wheels that were to hand during the restoration) or ex-Egyptan (refurbished before export, in the mid fifties).

 

No photos I'm afraid, perhaps the TM could be asked to open theirs up? (Assuming it has an engine anyway)

 

jch

JCH

 

[not sure if the Archer (which was not the official name) was built on old hulls or were all new builds, I suspect the latter]...new builds with so may redundant hulls available? or were they?

No idea, sadly there is little published on the Archer

The Bronco kit uses the MiniArt hull and suspension, and there are reports of an issue with the MiniArt wheels, Accurate Armour do a couple different styles in resin.]...I've heard about the wheels and AA say the Archer had a 'late special dish pattern made especially for the Archer' Maybe an error using MiniArts Valentine hull without changing the wheels?

I'd be happy to follow AA's research, so you might have a point on the use of the MiniArt wheels

Whats the story with the .30 cal I thought the secondary wpn was a Bren although I did read somewhere else a BESA?

I assume it was a local fitment by that unit, perhaps they wanted something heavier than a BESA?

 

jch

jchinuk

I assume it was a local fitment by that unit, perhaps they wanted something heavier than a BESA?

 

virtually no difference Besa fires a 198gr bullet at 2,700 ft/s MV and 450-750 RPM . whereas the 30cal fies a 150gr bullet at 280 ft/s MV 400-500 RPM.

 

Besas where not fitted to Valentine 17pdr SPGs -only as a possible lash up the Besa at 53lbs was very heavy and to give an idea of how much effort a lash up would require look at the tank mounting -possibly if some-one managed to find an MG37 mount it may have been possilbe to lash up something, otherwise it seem a none starter- there wasn't even a gun mount for troops to use if there tank was KO'd.

 

As for the other commonly held belief reliablity- both Browning and Besa were equally reliable -there are stories of besas turning translucent due to the heat but still firing.

 

Steve

Hi Martyn,

 

About the Browning M1919A4 .30 cal, the Canadian 3th Inf. Div. there are 2 photos evidence.

 

Kurtis

virtually no difference Besa fires a 198gr bullet at 2,700 ft/s MV and 450-750 RPM . whereas the 30cal fies a 150gr bullet at 280 ft/s MV 400-500 RPM.

 

 

Perhaps I should have said "perceived" improvement?

 

jch

Hi John

 

Do you know if the Archer was based on new build or redundant Valentines?

 

Ta

Martyn

 

Martyn,

 

According to the UK tank production figures, the Archers (and Valentine DD tanks) were new production, the Valentine tank production stopped in May 1944 and the production of the Archer started the same month. Production of the Valentine DD lasted a little longer, till August 1944, though only a handful each month.

 

The wheels on the TM's Archer seem to match those in the kit, which look like the 'late production' Valentines.

 

Hope this helps.

 

jch

Hi guys

 

I know they were used by the British and Canadians in NWE and a few in Italy by the Polish but do we have any idea of who used them in what numbers?

 

Ta

 

Martyn