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L9A1 Browing HP


shatters

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I've not seen any for sale. The current Hi-Powers for sale all appear to be 1970's built Mk2s and the odd Inglis or WW2 FN Mk1 and Mk1*.

 

I doubt we will see any BL serial guns on the market, they will probably go into War reserve and then be scrapped as the British Government don't want to be seen selling guns to the public.

 

As an aside, I have 2 FN Hi-powers, the first is a early 70s made civilian model and the second a Brand new in 2004 target model. The 70s model has a major floar with the barrel, its made in 2 parts and due to a deactivation slot, the spring is forcing the 2 parts apart which is visible through the ejection opening. I recently stripped it to oil it and now I can't assemble it because of the damage, so be on the look out for the breech end of the barrel parting on the FN produced barrels.

 

ATB, Chris.

 

p.s. A friend at Warminster S.A.S.C said that the FN L9 has the same problem.

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  • 2 months later...

Hi

What spec are the L9A1 pistols that replaced the No2 Mk1* pistols of Canadian vintage during the late 70's early 80s are they the MkII type with external extractor and spur type hammer or MK1's with internal extractor and round type hammer

I can only ever remember seeing the Inglis/Canadian type with rear humped sight whilst serving in the RN during the 70S and 80s.

 

Dan

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They are Mk2s with the external extractor, some had ring hammers and some had spur hammers. All had Lanyard rings originally and plastic grips. Since their introduction many have been modified/upgraded or parts replaced to Mk3 spec, an original L9 has the L9A1 marking and a NSN on the left and a BL prefix serial number like BL67A1234 on the right.

 

I can post a photo of my L9 if anyone is intrested.

 

ATB, Chris.

 

p.s. Pretty much every Hi-power on the market at the moment is a ex Israeli weapon.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I fired all sorts during my time. During my (brief, until I told them where they could stick their truncheons, and the sun wasn't shining) time in the RMP I was volunteered to star in a film showing how to strip and assemble a Browning.

 

The irony was that I had been tapping the boards before the OC Training Wing because yet again the Training Wing CSM had not considered I had not done enough work on bulling my boots (I had joined the army to crew a tank, not to spend my every waking hour kowtowing to the demands of a martinet CSM, but been advised I was overqualified and to go and find a proper job. I took Discharge As A Statutory Right and immediately re-enlisted). Restriction of Privileges (so that I might waste even more of my life bulling boots).

 

I returned to the lesson on the RMP Alternative Personal Weapon. The OC followed me in and asked the instructor for the best recruit at stripping and assembling the Browning. Me. The film was filmed and the OC was actually quite chummy. I later bumped into one of my former RMP buddies on the slopes of Mount Olympus in Cyprus where I was skiing. We had an interesting chat.

 

Anyhoo. The Browning.

 

I fired all sorts in competition. I cannot remember having won anything for Browning shooting: I could get up and look in the trophy cabinet, but I cannot be bothered. Browning was the only one that ever caused me any grief. Why?

 

I have short stumpy fingers. The unload of a Browning cocks the weapon in order to eject and extract a round in the breech (as do most weapons). With most weapons, you then pull the trigger and allow the working parts to slide forward under control. With the Browning, all that pulling the trigger does is let the hammer forward. To release the spring, it is necessary to engage a part in the bowels of the gun (name escapes me: it's been 35 years) while pulling the trigger. The book says to use a magazine (which is how the mechanism works during firing). However, putting a magazine on whilst performing an unload is seen as introducing scope for a Negligent Discharge by the army, so we were trained to slide the middle finger inside in place of the mag.

 

Like I said, I have short stumpy fingers. It must have been comical watching me fighting to get my finger inside during an unload whilst remembering to keep the weapon pointing downrange at all times.

 

---ooo0ooo---

 

Two cap badges later, the whole Pay Office bar me (that would be both of them) volunteered for the 1984 Osnabruck Garrison Triathlon. It was a hot sunny day and I wasn't going to do their work while they were off having a swim, a run and a pistol shoot, so I volunteered too. I had no intention of winning: there were far too many racing snakes and keen types: my calculations told me that a day out of the office having a swim and a 9-milly shoot was worth pounding up and down the one hill in Osnabruck. Even took wor Lass, the bairn (bairn number 2 was on the way) and a picnic.

 

So cometh the day. First up was the swim. Sorry, was I meant to be competitive? I didn't do competitive any more. Then came the 9-milly shoot. Dress for the day was tracksuit, with a web belt, holster and one pouch for the pistol. So there I am in tracksuit bottoms (apart from being black, the two yellow stripes down the outside of the legs made them look just like my mess dress trousers. On another occasion Wor Lass could not believe I was wearing work boots, mess dress trousers and T shirt for Tug-of-war. But that's yet another story), track suit top open and T shirt.

 

The instructions came down to load, make ready and finally, "Watch and shoot, watch and shoot." We all adopted the postion. The targets turned from side-on to face-on, our cue to engage them. I raised the gun and took up first pressure on the trigger. A wasp struck my chest just above the neck of the T shirt and fell inside. Ow, ow. I untucked the T shirt from the tracky bottoms and out fell ... a red-hot empty case from the bloke to my left.

 

By the time I was sorted (remember I had a loaded gun and one hand had to keep it pointing downrange at all times), I'd missed the first engagement. Damn. The targets reappeared, I raised the gun and ... another empty case hit my collar bone and dropped inside my T shirt.

 

Ultimately, the 9-milly shoot was not the strong point of my day that I'd hoped for. As predicted, I didn't finsh in the top 3 in the hill run ... or the top 50 ... or the top 200. I didn't stop around for the medal presentation. But the picnic was good.

Edited by AlienFTM
typo
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Reminds me of when I was in a .22 comp. It was a American Jennings pistol we were using and on the command make ready, I pulled the slide back and let it go forward. On that, the whole thing erupted and 12 rounds of .22 went full auto down the range. It turned out some grains of powder from the previous shoot had jammed the firing pin out effectively making it fixed. Cought me right off gauard!

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With introduction of the SIG P226 as the British armies main side arm, have any genuine ex army L9A1 browing Hi Power pistol reached the deactivated market yet ? Most retailers just list them as FN GP 35 Hi Power

 

Phil

 

Eh! Where, when, why, did that happen? :-)

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was sure that this morning, I had posted an informed and well-reasoned response to this thread ?! :undecided:

 

It is my understanding that “ . . . the L9s in armouries all over the country have been in service for decades, absolutely donkeys' years, used and abused and frequently poorly maintained. After 20 or 30 years of nuggets not cleaning them and letting the hammers slam down rather than controlling them they are a little worse for wear and need replacing. AIUI the SIG was a UOR for Afghanistan because there weren't enough serviceable L9s”.

 

It is understood “ . . that when the Afghan draw-down begins, every UOR item will be withdrawn and flogged off by HMG. The brief "age of the pistol" will also evaporate, and it will revert to case of a few L9s being kept in armouries for the CO and medics. There are quite enough decent L9s left for that sort of scale of issue”.

 

So, in a matter of time (post 2014?), it may be easier to acquire an ex-Afghanistan SIG SAUER P226 (plus, numerous expensively sourced sand-coloured vehicles), than it will be to acquire a Browning! :-)

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It is the correct profile & astheticly correct model. But these are Ex Belgien Army/police variants.

A REAL L9 would have a N.A.T.O Stock number & 'Pistol, Automatic, 9mm L9A1' nomencleture on the left side of the slide.

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I was sure that this morning, I had posted an informed and well-reasoned response to this thread ?! :undecided:

 

It is my understanding that “ . . . the L9s in armouries all over the country have been in service for decades, absolutely donkeys' years, used and abused and frequently poorly maintained. After 20 or 30 years of nuggets not cleaning them and letting the hammers slam down rather than controlling them they are a little worse for wear and need replacing. AIUI the SIG was a UOR for Afghanistan because there weren't enough serviceable L9s”.

 

Can you tell me where you got this 'information' from Please? Or is this a purely personal opinion of your own? I was a Service Armourer (Army) for over 19 years, & I can assure you.

ANY, smallarm in Army Service is never, 'Poorly Maintained'. this is effected by the fact that there is an established system in place for maintainance procedures. Every three months & sometimes six months in some units. Evry single weapon is inspected & repaired as nessacary by Unit Armourers. there is also a yearly PRE examination. This prevents weapons from falling into 'disrepair' & keeps all equipments battleworthy. The Arms storeman (Sometimes erroneously called 'The Armourer'. he is NOT! He is a Storeman) also has a book/leger. That any weapons taken out on excercises or for whatever reason. IF they have a defect or do not function correctly. that he writes down the weapon type, serial number & the defect reported by the user. This is then taken to the Armourers shop on generally a weekly bassis. & the Armourer will then inspect & repair/ correct the defect as nessacary. With 9mm Pistols, your remarks to the user droping the hammer down & NOT lowering the hammer under control. Are correct in as much as, the firing pin retaining plate at the rear of the slide. DOES begin to crack through at a line of it's weakest point. Where it is drilled through to allow the head of the firing pin to protrude. This IS what happens when constant 'Hammering' of this little plate from the hammer occurs. The pistol WILL still fire correctly, but it is indeed a DEFECT & they are replaced by Armourers when cracked. it is not my intention to go through a full R.E.ME Inpection procedure from E.M.E.R.s here. I have written down the above to Correct an INACCURATE statement as to the working condition & Inspection practices used in Service to prevent the 'Chinese wisper' effect of an INCORRECT statement of 'POORLY MAINTAINED'....:goodidea:

Edited by Marmite!!
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I'm a RAF armourer and I have to agree with ferretfixer, there is no poor maintenance on British weapons. You just cant get away with it, every time a weapon is serviced/repaired, it has supporting paperwork, signed by the individual and the supervisor (It is in the RAF so I assume the other services will be the same). If a weapon becomes unservicable and is beyond unit repair, it is returned to what we in the RAF call 2nd, 3rd, or 4th line by the unit supplier, its not pointlessly kept (That would mean more pointless paperwork). It seams the only diffrence between the Army and the RAF is that in the RAF the Armourer, services, repairs, controls and issues the weapons the only time a non Armourer is involved is when the supplier sends parts or returns a U/S weapon (even then they usually just do the paperwork and 2 armourers handle the weapons).

 

 

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Chris, I have visted a few R.A.F base Armourers shops & concur with your statements. To my mind, R.A.F Armourers have a bit more responsibility. YOU guys issue & Recieve any smallarms from your Armouries which are combined with your workshop. In the Army, WE, as Armourers Only are responsible for inspections, repairs, modifications & Examination of Ordanance when required. All Rifile Companies at Infantry Barracks, have thier own respective Armouries. As your system is similar to our, for repairs which are beyond Local repair. IE: needing special equipment not held at first line (Unit) level. We have Unit (X) Field (Y) & Base (Z) levels of repairs. Also at unit level, The senior Armourer (usually a SNCO) can write off certain equipments as B.E.R (Beyond Economical Repair) These include just a FEW as: Bayonets, Watches, Compasses, & Binoculars (When broken in two from an Airborne Parachute decent for example) The British Armed Forces have had legendary reliability from thier Smallarms & Ordanance over the last Two world wars & postwar. This has been down to a good system of periodic inspection & repairs. I would also state, that the L85A1 was a problimatical Weapon when introduced as an exception. The 'Difficulties' have APPARANTLY been ironed out & it is now a reasonably relaible weapon system. The argumants are MANY with for's & againsts for this calibre smallarm & it's design. But I wil NOT go into a Scientific depth explaination from an Armourers perspective here! :D

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Theres alot of people out there who slate the L85 but I actually like it. The A2 version is an improvement over the A1 but to be honest, I never had a issue with it. I'd guess that most of the L85s never see heavy use (Especially in the RAF ;-) ) and from my point of view, its perfectly fine for guard duties and normal every day use. I did a Tour of Iraq in 2005 on Bomb disposal (Not your everyday RAF Tour) with the A2 and because of its compactness, it sat by me in our Snatch, although I didn't use the sling. I don't know if im in the minority who like it, or if its just not getting the praise it now deserves but I'll defend its rep.

 

Going back to the L9, I asked a mate in the know and he confirmed what I'd already heard on the jungle telegraph.

 

'Thay are looking at replacing the L9 soon. But HOW soon is a matter of conjecture at the moment because xx,000 SIG';s are in theatre as we speak. But some trials are to be held soon. To be honest, if anyone seriously expects trials to be anything other than the nod for the SIG, then I'm a piccolo player.'

 

and he dosn't play the piccolo!

 

(I edited out the in theatre figure as I didn't want to publicise it, just in case some 3rd party wanted to misuse or misinterprate that figure for there own use, I may be being over cautious but hey.)

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Can you tell me where you got this 'information' from Please? Or is this a purely personal opinion of your own? I was a Service Armourer (Army) for over 19 years, & I can assure you . . ANY, smallarm in Army Service is never, 'Poorly Maintained'.

 

I'm a RAF armourer and I have to agree with ferretfixer, there is no poor maintenance on British weapons . . .

 

My apologies if the quotations I lifted from “another place”, have caused offence. There was certainly NO intention of casting aspersions on the professionalism of the Service Armourers and/or store men . . . past or present! :-(

 

As you will gather from my “User Name”, I had a long association with Prince William of Gloucester Barracks, and most of the “Independent” RCT TA Regiments - as a TA Officer and, on two occasions as a TA Officer serving as the Depot Adjutant . . . when the Regular Army couldn’t find one of their own :-)

 

I always had every confidence in the weapons with which I was/we were issued, on range days when they would be fired, and for field exercises when they would (generally) not have been expected to be fired.

 

I was also very pleased with the standard/ordinary Browning with which I was issued before deploying to Bosnia . . . It was however rather irksome, to see that the nursing officer in the queue ahead of my receive a Browning pistol with “Gucci” adjustable sights and wooden grips - which would been wasted, stored in the armoury in her B-i-H location, for the duration of her deployment! :-(

 

I was alarmed by the “rumour” started at the beginning of this thread, of the impending removal from service of the Browning L9.

All things mechanical can/do eventually wear-out, including individual weapons that may have been heavily used and/or abused. However, other than those individual pistols, I did not (still do not) see why our use of the Browning L9 would cease.

 

The information repeated below, is certainly NOT my personal opinion. I went in search of information pertaining to the Browning L9, on another web-site frequented by a number of currently serving, and former, service personnel. The intention of (re-)posting the information, is that (I hope), it adds to the discussion as to whether we will/should replace the Browning as our "general" service pistol. :-)

 

The L9s in armouries all over the country have been in service for decades, absolutely donkeys' years, used and abused and frequently poorly maintained. After 20 or 30 years of nuggets not cleaning them and letting the hammers slam down rather than controlling them they are a little worse for wear and need replacing. AIUI the SIG was a UOR for Afghanistan because there weren't enough serviceable L9s . . . .

 

I imagine that when the Afghan draw-down begins, every UOR item will be withdrawn and flogged off by HMG. The brief "age of the pistol" will also evaporate, and it will revert to case of a few L9s being kept in armouries for the CO and medics. There are quite enough decent L9s left for that sort of scale of issue.

 

http://www.arrse.co.uk/shooting-hunting-fishing/154541-sig-p226-replace-browning-hi-power.html

 

As mentioned a couple of posts back, I did post earlier - and, correctly attribute (as above), the source of my information - freely available to anyone on the inter-web / world-wide-net “thingy”.

 

However, I did not appreciate my earlier/original post had been deleted by problems with this forum’s server, earlier today. I had thought my earlier/original post had been deleted because I had contravened a forum rule - with which I am still becoming familiar! Hence the abbreviated response I posted earlier, and for which (I again) apologise, if it has caused offence!

Edited by RCT(V)
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Hi Andrew, No offence taken mate, forums are there for friendly chats and banter, please dont take any of my posts as having a go at you, the forums here for the sharing of info and experiences so we all share the benefits and better our knowledge. I beleive the L9 will be phased out due to its age and not due to it wearing out. Its like the old Webley and Enfield revolvers being replaced by the L9. The new Sig is more 21st centuary than the old GP35 and I'm sure theres bound to be some contractual deals going on. I personaly prefer the L9, I had a civvy Mk3 before the ban and I put hundreds of rounds down the range and I fealt I was quite competent with it.

 

ATB, Chris.

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