question Registering Tavern rebuild

Hi, first topic outside the introductions area here.

I have an ex-UK MOD Tavern APV2 that I bought a couple of months ago from Witham SV. I'm rebuilding it to a more civilian spec (RHD standard cab, drop side pick up body, all armour removed). It's getting close to registering it for the road and I need some help/advice please.

I hope to have the MOD Form 654 from Witham soon showing the into service details, but I don't have a chassis number on the vehicle. I have my receipts from the purchase etc. also. The way I understand it I need to get the vehicle insured, MOTed and then take ID, money for tax and the Form 654 to the local DVLA office to get it registered using DVLA form V55/5. I have three main questions though:

How does the 6800kg GVW effect the process, presumably I need the form VTG1 for the first MOT, but will I need the form VTG10 for a change of body also?

Presumably the Form 654 will cover 'evidence of newness' as required by the DVLA, but how do I prove 'evidence of Type Approval' for this US origin vehicle, or will I need an SVA/IVA etc?

Finally, should the Form 654 show the chassis number?

Thanks, Rich

Hi, first topic outside the introductions area here.

 

I have an ex-UK MOD Tavern APV2 that I bought a couple of months ago from Witham SV. I'm rebuilding it to a more civilian spec (RHD standard cab, drop side pick up body, all armour removed). It's getting close to registering it for the road and I need some help/advice please.

 

I hope to have the MOD Form 654 from Witham soon showing the into service details, but I don't have a chassis number on the vehicle. I have my receipts from the purchase etc. also. The way I understand it I need to get the vehicle insured, MOTed and then take ID, money for tax and the Form 654 to the local DVLA office to get it registered using DVLA form V55/5. I have three main questions though:

 

How does the 6800kg GVW effect the process, presumably I need the form VTG1 for the first MOT, but will I need the form VTG10 for a change of body also?

 

Presumably the Form 654 will cover 'evidence of newness' as required by the DVLA, but how do I prove 'evidence of Type Approval' for this US origin vehicle, or will I need an SVA/IVA etc?

 

Finally, should the Form 654 show the chassis number?

 

Thanks, Rich

Hello mate,

Very nice to see someone restoring one of these vehicles. We still had the Glover Web APV's.

The 654 will tell you what unit the vehicle has come from, asset code, vehicle make and model, Military registration number, chassis number, date into service and milage. It also states if the vehicle is a runner, complete and whether it's accident damaged.

WARNING. There MUST be a chassis number somewhere on the chassis. You will need to find this as Withams have a habbit of getting the chassis number wrong!!

The date into service will be the year the DVLA go off when it comes to registering it. It may have been built 5 years before the Date In Service, but it's the Date in Service the DVLA use. (should be around 2000)

You insure the vehicle on the chassis number and you will aslo MOT the vehicle on the chassis number. There has to be a VIN plate on the vehicle. Also be aware that there should also be a weight plate somewhere. This will probably state the weight of the vehicle WITH the armour fitted. As this has been removed the weight will be considerably less. I would Imagine that 6,800kgs is the weight WITH armour fitted. It might be an idea to contact the Manufacturer (GMC I think) and ask what the equivilent weight would be for a civvy pick up truck. You may need to get the vehicle weighed on a certified weighbridge to get the correct weight.

I don't think you need a form for change of body. On the V55 it asks what the body type is. You put down what the body is on the V55 and it is registered as that. If it was registered as an armoured vehicle then you would need to change the body type, but as it's un registered they will put down what you have put on the V55.

Hope this helps. I can't guarantee the accuracy of this information though apart from what's on the 654 form.

Cheers

Andy

Thanks Andy, that's really helpful.

Currently there are no identifying marks on the vehicle at all, other than the reg number on the key. No chassis number that I've found, VIN plate, weight plate etc. I know for a fact that the military reg number is correct as my truck is the actual one that is pictured complete on this website and has a number of body damage areas that match those photos. It also still had the plates on when I first viewed it at Withams.

The 6800kg comes from Chevrolet (they're a Chevy, not a GMC by the way!) as the model was only made in one specification. The truck is a '98 model and from the club for this model in the 'states I have axle weights, gross weights etc. so I'll only need the new curb weight for the weight plate.

I hope to find the chassis number once the truck is completely stripped, then I can get a VIN plate made.

Any joy with getting the chassis number yet?

Or does anyone know if it's possible to get this from the Army reg number????

(they're a Chevy, not a GMC by the way!)

Are you sure? I suppose you must be, you've been able to climb all over it. Its just that I have an AESP catalogue in front of me & 2320-K-200 is designated "Truck Armoured Patrol Mk 2 (APV2) 4x4 6.5LTR Diesel GMC".

If you are really sure & it is a military blunder why did they get it so wrong? I wonder if it was a carry over from 2320-D-150 "Truck Utility Command Post GMC" was that an earlier sort of thing?

Some Tavern pics here:

http://www.warwheels.net/TavernAPVindex.html

PS ah I see they are all part of the same company:D

I think you will find that GMC incorporated Chevrolet some time in the past. So in reality they are the same beast with a different badge. Different brands used for different countries.

Many examples of this.

We had the Monaro under the Vauxhall badge, Austraila it war the Holden and USA Pontiac.

In America they have Dodge and we get it as Chrysler.

Mike

If you need to have it weighed for the DVLA you're local municipal tip will have a weigh bridge (where the bin wagons empty out the garbage).

Thanks for the help guys,

I'm pretty sure it's a 'Chevrolet' as, talking to some experts on the brand from the US, the bowtie emblem on the steering wheel was only used on the Chevrolet version. As Mike says though, Chevrolet is just a trading name of General Motors Corperation, so it's likely that's where the army took the designation from.

That link with the photo and specification calls it "Truck Armoured Patrol Mk 2 (APV2) 4x4 6.2LTR Diesel GMC" - which I've seen a couple of places and it is 100% a 6.5LTR.

I now have the form 654 and it does show the Penman issued chassis number, so I think I have all the info I need to register, other than the curb weight which as mentioned I can just get at the nearest weigh bridge.

Hi

I have just joined the forum.

I have been looking for one of the taverns to rebuild and have found a guy in doncaster that has 8 for sale, I am going to look at them on monday. I already have a chevy truck so I am hoping to combine the two.

How have you got on getting your going and is the registering a major problem ?

I haven't donw much work on the truck for the last few months, due to gardening and holidays. I'm going to hit it hard in October/November. I have bought a Chevy 3500 ex-ambulance t provide the missing parts for the rebuild.

Registration wise the only stumbling block I have is that I will be registering it using the Penman chassis number shown on the 654 form and this isn't shown on the chassis anywhere. I think I have enough supporting documents to just mark this on the chassis, but that's the only question.

If you buy from the guy in Doncaster, he doesn't have the 654 form necessary to register. You'll either have to go the full IVA route, or get the Witham Specialist Vehicle receipt from him and try to get them to give you the 654 Form.

Sometimes DVLA come out and check no is marked. Dont know for sure but some Chevrolet chasssis are stamped just to rear of front spring hanger i have have a motor home it certainly is also has riveted plate with vin no on just visable on bulkhead right in corner of windscreen you have to stand on something to get sight of it hope this helps.

Well, a long time has passed since I started this thread and the Tavern has been mostly sat on the drive collecting cobwebs. However, the time is now close to MOT and registering. There's a few areas I could do with some help with:

I have the truck insured on the Penman chassis number, matching chassis number and VIN plate and matching release Form 640 showing build date, date into service, release date etc. I have Form V55/4 from the DVLA and I'm hoping to MOT in the next 3 weeks.

HOWEVER! The form V55/4 asks for a lot of info on weight, emissions, type approval etc. Info which I don't have. Weights I can get, but I was going to register it at 3500kg (it weighs under), so do I need to put all the max weights at 3500kg? What about the other type approval stuff, is this covered by the Form 640?

Also, does anyone know if I can drive to the MOT with no plates? I presume I need to trailer it?

Thanks, PB

When the Vehicle and Operator Services Agency ( VOSA ) existed, I believe that it was possible to drive to one of their test stations for a pre-booked MOT as long as the vehicle is insured. Now VOSA is the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) so a phone call to them should give you the answer.

The link gives details of DVSA IVA Test Stations and Privately Owned Test Facilities

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/358321/iva-test-stations-and-potfs.pdf

For the information required on emissions, type approval etc. have you thought of contacting Penman?

For the information required on emissions, type approval etc. have you thought of contacting Penman?

Good thinking! However, is that necessary when registering more 'normal' ex-MOD vehicles? The venerable Land Rover as an ex-service is very different to the type approved civilian versions for example.

HOWEVER! The form V55/4 asks for a lot of info on weight, emissions, type approval etc. Info which I don't have...is this covered by the Form 640?

I think you are registering it on the wrong form. As you correctly said in your first post, this is a used vehicle so needs a V55/5 not V55/4. V55/5 requires much less type approval information, though it does ask for a type approval number. I'm not sure about this, because when I was registering ex-MoD vehicles most were types built before type approval was introduced and it was before the IVA regime came in, but as a vehicle built for use by the military, it should be exempt. Certainly whenever I registered an ex-MoD vehicle I just put 'not applicable - ex-MoD' in the type approval box and it was never a problem. Alternatively you could try the GM type approval for the base vehicle or it might have to go for an IVA.

... I was going to register it at 3500kg (it weighs under), so do I need to put all the max weights at 3500kg?

Is there a (common) confusion here between unladen and gross weights? Though type approval includes kerb weights etc, the weights which are relevant for licencing (driver and vehicle) are gross not unladen, so is the fact it weighs under 3500kg as it stands relevant?

My guess is that if the suspension is unchanged from GMC original there will be no change in gross and axle weights and the original figures could be obtained from GM. If Penman changed the suspension to cope with the armour, they should have gone through a documented design process and you should be able to get the relevant figures from them.

Also, does anyone know if I can drive to the MOT with no plates? I presume I need to trailer it?

As I understand it, it's perfectly legal to drive it to a pre-booked MoT and get it tested on the chassis plates provided it's insured. Make sure when you book the appointment they record the chassis number. Certainly that's what we always did, after having checked the situation with DVLA, VOSA and the police.

Having said that, it would be worth checking as there have been so many re-interpretations of the law lately. I know at least one person on here had a problem with an over-zealous policeman in these circumstances. If you do check, I'd do it with VOSA or a senior traffic officer rather than believe an MoT tester or a local DVLA clerk. You may of course feel that trailering it is less hassle!

Well, again a little delay in progress, BUT the Tavern is booked for an MOT on Monday....

I'm playing it safe and trailering the Tavern to and from the MOT (with my Defender :undecided:). I went over the whole vehicle and never could find chassis numbers, so I've stamped the Penman chassis number on the chassis and made a chassis plate for the body using the Chevrolet Type Approval information for weights (using a generic 'VW' type blank plate).

I have my form V55/5 ready to go and completed the sections recommended on another thread here, entering N/A on the Type Approval sections, so fingers crossed the MOT will go well and the process with the DVLA will be plain sailing.

I'll update next week, as hopefully this will be useful to those of you registering some other more unusual military cast offs.

Oh, I forgot to say I contacted Penman and got a very swift response. They confirmed the in-service weights and some other details about how and where the base vehicle was purchased. Generally quite helpful, but nothing really to help the registration process.

Good luck!

Cool vehicles, but why would you want to remove the armour? That's the best bit!

Cheers,

Terry

Cool vehicles, but why would you want to remove the armour? That's the best bit!

 

Cheers,

Terry

2 reasons really, firstly the majority of original body was removed before sale, so it would have been a huge job to rebuild it and secondly changing the body has made it a useful vehicle rather than a show piece. True it would of been really cool to have a recreation of the original, but this way I have something to use and enjoy.

And here it is on it's way to the test centre, the Defender certainly struggled with the weight!

A little update, which may well be of interest to other parties going through the registration process.

I took the truck for a class 7 MOT, but the tester picked up the 6818kg gross weight on the chassis plate, entered it in to the MOT system and go a 'do not proceed' as it is over 3500kg gross.

So I had 2 options, 1 down rate the truck to 3500kg gross (perfectly legal to do according to VOSA), or 2 go for an HGV test. I thought I'd investigate option 1, but to do this I needed to weigh the truck to check it was safely under 3500kg light. I took it to the nearest weigh bridge and it weighed in at 3500kg on the dot with no fuel! Option 2 it is then!

Next step was to log the truck on the VOSA HGV test system, this involves getting them to raise a plating certificate, however to do this required a VOSA Technical Investigation as the model was not known to them. This conversation and record providing, contact direct with VOSA and Penman all went very smoothly and was sorted in a week! So next step was to book an HGV test with VOSA and find a garage willing to test the truck and give me some support on the tech side.

It took about 6 weeks to get the HGV test lined up, then the truck failed. No under run bars, no side protection, brakes insufficient and a few other minors. The most major was the VOSA inspector saying the tyres were not speed rated. So, back to VOSA head office I went with info from Bridgestone proving the ratings of the tyres, then back in for a re-test after a weekend of fabrication on the various protection bars.

The truck passed it's second HGV test easily, the VOSA tester was an excellent helpful chap. Now I have completed and sent off the V55/5 and various other documents and I'm waiting to hear back from the DVLA.

It's been a long winded process, but I have to say the authorities have all been very helpful, though lacking some understanding of the weird at times.

good for you mate, a long road but you got there in the end and with a very useful looking vehicle.

Thanks, and yesterday I received a nice shinny new V5 in the post, just 7 days after sending off the V55/5. Now all I need is number plates and to inform my insurance company of the registration number.