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Have British Army Vehicles always had the engines and ancills painted turquoise?


Rover8FFR

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Hi Wayne,

 

When the Land Rovers were new from the factory, the cylinder block, timing cover, water pump and head, were painted a pale blue/grey. Possibly as you describe. This was not an overall spray after assembly. The rocker cover and flywheel housing was bare alloy finish and I think the sump was gloss black. I rebuilt loads of 2.25 engines, both 2a and 3 series, in REME workshops and once they were tested, they were painted completely in Sky Blue, except distributors which were a dull black.

 

Richard that is very, helpful and explains quite a bit. Can you advise if it was normal to have some numbers in white on the manifold side of the engine block, using a stencil pattern? This may prove the engine is totally original. However there is one oddety with it that it has a standard 9 stud water pump. Did all Rover 2286cc petrol engines have 7 stud water pumps from day 1 or does the age of my engine pre-date that modification??? Spotted this last night when taking old pump off that was leaking.

 

Regards

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Under the old rules - it would get a suffix K (01/8/71 to 31/7/72) as if it were a new vehicle . These rules changed about 1983 when Q reg. was introduced , If you could prove date of manufacture - then you get that datable registration , otherwise you get a Q.

 

Are you able to give details of such as the Contract or NSN , if you don't wish to state your chassis No. on the internet - just use two or 3 "x" in the middle of the number (the start / finish are important).

With this info. - there are a few people who can give you a bit of addl. info.

 

Hi Ruxy.

 

The Contract number was WV/1327 Item 1 (Can anyone help with the Item 1 bit Please, as user handbook code no 18358 only refers to W/V 1327 with no suffix item?)

 

Code number on Vin Plate 304653.01.990

 

Chassis No 24111XXXB

 

All assistance greatly appreciated.

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Wayne that would be of interest. But are you sure it is an EMEI as that should have the theatre of use in the title? I suspect what you have is EMER WHEELED VEHICLES Q 020- 029. That is certainly a big one but is what might best be described as a 'chaos' of information with great difficulty in defining what Rover they are taliking about. But it is certainly is a must have for a MV Rover person.

 

I suspect you have found it of use as it covers the 40A system quite well.

 

I do actually have a spare copy of about a third of it if you're interested.

 

Clive the document that I have that is quite a volume is Q 022 April 1961 Land Rover All Marks. It starts with some data and images of a Rover 3.

 

In addition I have the servicing schedule for Rover 1/4 to 3/4 Ton Army Code 60957, 57/TECH/5349

 

If any of these are of use please advise. The servicing schedule is easy to copy as an A5 booklet.

 

Regards

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Wayne yes the WV Q 020 series is a monster extending to variants up to Q 020/18. It is real hotch potch you get the /7 section redesignated as /2 and /6 to /3. Then the whole system of structuring EMERs breaks down in Q 020 you get section A to U which are essentially civilian Rover documents but with some sections like PP are restricted military documents adopting the Rover designations.

 

The problem is knowing whether you have a 'complete' document that covers everything, will depend how srcupulous the updating has been & I find it quite thrilling to have a page demanding the destruction of a section yet find it is still there!

 

The other thing is of course, the EMERs that came from various workshops would not necessarily have all the regulations, only those that are general and those that applied to the vehicles they were responsible for.

 

OK on AC No.60957. I have that one but bear in mind the was an ammendment 60957-1.

 

Anyway thanks for offering, building a good collection of reference materiel is very worthwhile because all sorts of things may arise in the future that you will want to look up & having the first hand references is invaluable.

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Wayne yes the WV Q 020 series is a monster extending to variants up to Q 020/18. It is real hotch potch you get the /7 section redesignated as /2 and /6 to /3. Then the whole system of structuring EMERs breaks down in Q 020 you get section A to U which are essentially civilian Rover documents but with some sections like PP are restricted military documents adopting the Rover designations.

 

The problem is knowing whether you have a 'complete' document that covers everything, will depend how srcupulous the updating has been & I find it quite thrilling to have a page demanding the destruction of a section yet find it is still there!

 

The other thing is of course, the EMERs that came from various workshops would not necessarily have all the regulations, only those that are general and those that applied to the vehicles they were responsible for.

 

OK on AC No.60957. I have that one but bear in mind the was an ammendment 60957-1.

 

Anyway thanks for offering, building a good collection of reference materiel is very worthwhile because all sorts of things may arise in the future that you will want to look up & having the first hand references is invaluable.

 

I'll check what sections I have but I know it runs to hundreds of pages and is about 55-60mm thick, so at least a ream of paper used. That's circa 500 sheets.

 

Regards:readpaper:

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Hi Ruxy.

 

The Contract number was WV/1327 Item 1 (Can anyone help with the Item 1 bit Please, as user handbook code no 18358 only refers to W/V 1327 with no suffix item?)

 

Code number on Vin Plate 304653.01.990

 

Chassis No 24111XXXB

 

All assistance greatly appreciated.

 

=======================================================

 

OK - I have managed to lock on to the Contract No. 88" FFR's some RHD & others LHD (chassis were not unisex - meaning only one steering relay hole). From the chassis No. yours was RHD (LHD start 244 / suffix B0

 

WO designation 8 (Rover Mk.8)

 

TRUCK UTILITY (soft top) 24 volt 40 amp

 

NSN 2320-99-893-3166

 

Chassis range 24105242B to 24113302B

 

So - possibly the Item was for 8060 trucks if they were all taken up.

 

It now seems that Royal Navy contracts & some (if not all) RAF Contract vehicles were taken out of the ARMY Contracts. This seems the case if they wanted 24 volt vehicles - the odd ones turn up re-plated as helistart vehicles etc.

 

If the record card was not at Deepcut (missing from Beverley Museum of Army Transport records) - then it could have been re-mustered to RN or RAF. The RAF museum can lock on to individual chassis numbers but RN / RM trucks can be difficult - the RN vehicle numbers were re-cycled - not making it easy.

 

There is a person with the Nom-de-Plume of 88FFR on the Series 2 Club Forum who seems very good at records.

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Richard that is very, helpful and explains quite a bit. Can you advise if it was normal to have some numbers in white on the manifold side of the engine block, using a stencil pattern? This may prove the engine is totally original. However there is one oddety with it that it has a standard 9 stud water pump. Did all Rover 2286cc petrol engines have 7 stud water pumps from day 1 or does the age of my engine pre-date that modification??? Spotted this last night when taking old pump off that was leaking.

 

Regards

 

============================================

 

Water pumps get a bit complex - depends on the engine timing case cover fitted (and there were 5 qty. covers in use at this period). I have been caught out on this once before - best to close study the hardware if known to be original. IIRC - the military 7 stud pump is not often used.

 

In your case , it does look as if you should have a 9 hole pump Rover 530477 (after many S/S - now known as STC3758).

 

The stencil - would be for ID after fettling & before machining / branding.

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=======================================================

 

OK - I have managed to lock on to the Contract No. 88" FFR's some RHD & others LHD (chassis were not unisex - meaning only one steering relay hole). From the chassis No. yours was RHD (LHD start 244 / suffix B0

 

WO designation 8 (Rover Mk.8)

 

TRUCK UTILITY (soft top) 24 volt 40 amp

 

NSN 2320-99-893-3166

 

Chassis range 24105242B to 24113302B

 

So - possibly the Item was for 8060 trucks if they were all taken up.

 

It now seems that Royal Navy contracts & some (if not all) RAF Contract vehicles were taken out of the ARMY Contracts. This seems the case if they wanted 24 volt vehicles - the odd ones turn up re-plated as helistart vehicles etc.

 

If the record card was not at Deepcut (missing from Beverley Museum of Army Transport records) - then it could have been re-mustered to RN or RAF. The RAF museum can lock on to individual chassis numbers but RN / RM trucks can be difficult - the RN vehicle numbers were re-cycled - not making it easy.

 

There is a person with the Nom-de-Plume of 88FFR on the Series 2 Club Forum who seems very good at records.

 

:nut: If it went across to RAF or RN as a 24v FFR would that not mean it's livery would have changed also from deep bronze green? It appears the only way I will get to this is to start rubbing down through the 40 odd years of MOD and civi paint on the original panels I saved even though they are Kerry Packered!

 

Your suggestion may be plausable and leads me into more ever decreasing circles mode. No wonder I am getting dizzy with the history on this vehicle. I must say though that I wish I had joined this forum years ago as I have uncovered so much with everyones help and knowledge. I never considered the other services at all!

 

Do you have to join the series 2 club to get help with that on m8? Thanks in advance.

 

Cheers

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============================================

 

Water pumps get a bit complex - depends on the engine timing case cover fitted (and there were 5 qty. covers in use at this period). I have been caught out on this once before - best to close study the hardware if known to be original. IIRC - the military 7 stud pump is not often used.

 

In your case , it does look as if you should have a 9 hole pump Rover 530477 (after many S/S - now known as STC3758).

 

The stencil - would be for ID after fettling & before machining / branding.

 

I know the engine is a Qualcast made block, but I guess that means nothing????? I will post the engine number and see if that helps identify.

 

I know what you mean about the water pump query. I bought a 7 stud then had to send it back for exchange today. Should have took off first but I was told by some S2 rivet counter that all military 2286cc engines were 7 stud military pattern water pumps. He convinced me anyway :cry:

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I know the engine is a Qualcast made block, but I guess that means nothing????? I will post the engine number and see if that helps identify.

 

I know what you mean about the water pump query. I bought a 7 stud then had to send it back for exchange today. Should have took off first but I was told by some S2 rivet counter that all military 2286cc engines were 7 stud military pattern water pumps. He convinced me anyway :cry:

 

 

Hi Wayne,

 

Qualcast ( lawn mower people as well ! ) cast the cyl blocks, nothing to read into that. As for stencilled numbers on the block, no idea unless you can make out a bit of what is on there. As for the pumps, my memory is vague now, after too many years, but I do know that both 7 and 9 hole pumps were in use by the military. We were rebuilding engines for all three Services at that time, and the issue of pumps often came up, but other than that I forget the details now.

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Hi Wayne,

 

Qualcast ( lawn mower people as well ! ) cast the cyl blocks, nothing to read into that. As for stencilled numbers on the block, no idea unless you can make out a bit of what is on there. As for the pumps, my memory is vague now, after too many years, but I do know that both 7 and 9 hole pumps were in use by the military. We were rebuilding engines for all three Services at that time, and the issue of pumps often came up, but other than that I forget the details now.

 

Something to read into as a bit of a falacy regarding the military engine / spec landrover having a 7 stud water pump! I guess it all depends on the engine, manufacture dates and changes in specs and contract numbers.

 

It is all very fascinating though!

 

Regards :laugh:

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It all depends on the engine timing case cover fitted , at the build time of your truck there were a choice of 5 qty. covers and 4 qty. pumps .

Pumps were in fact 7 hole . 8 hole or 9 hole !!

 

A fair guide is that the military 7 hole pump is used on the FFR 90A genny front cover.

 

=========

 

PS - not much of a clue because the FFR 90A front cover on some contracts could be fitted to a 12 volt GS ?

Edited by ruxy
ps
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It all depends on the engine timing case cover fitted , at the build time of your truck there were a choice of 5 qty. covers and 4 qty. pumps .

Pumps were in fact 7 hole . 8 hole or 9 hole !!

 

A fair guide is that the military 7 hole pump is used on the FFR 90A genny front cover.

 

=========

 

PS - not much of a clue because the FFR 90A front cover on some contracts could be fitted to a 12 volt GS ?

 

Thanks for that. Sounds like a VW/ Audi parts bin story? Maybe Land Rover were thinking German even before BMW arrived. LoL :shocked:

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Hi all

 

I have managed to do a bit of cleaning up around the engine now and established that the original engine block colour is a pale grey ish, with a hint of something like blue or green :nut: as per the photo, but essentially a pale grey. I have also deduced that the white stenciled number I mentioned across the block is what appears to me to be the number '80'. Does anyone have any idea as to what this would be for please? The colour is prevelent all around the block in the grey so looks genuine and original.

engine block colo.jpg

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Hi all

 

I have also deduced that the white stenciled number I mentioned across the block is what appears to me to be the number '80'. Does anyone have any idea as to what this would be for please? The colour is prevelent all around the block in the grey so looks genuine and original.

 

It might have been something to identify it when going through the machining process. Castings are often painted in a primer before machining.

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Almost certainly the 80th manufacturing day of the year or a batch number , QC as the blocks go through the transfer line. Typical of mass production.

Often very important castings that go through individual machining have a treacability number cast on and another individual sample with the same number cast on the casting (this is later removed and retained for Q.C.) Sometimes yet another one is removed for chemical & physical lab. tests before machining starts. When the samples are removed it is normally subject to independant witness and branding with unique ID stamps.

Not a big problem with iron castings but with steel castings there can often be a few casts to gat a radiograph defect free casting for highest classification , standard procedures often releases the defective ones for gouging and weld repairs for lesser quality jobs where possible.

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Almost certainly the 80th manufacturing day of the year or a batch number , QC as the blocks go through the transfer line. Typical of mass production.

Often very important castings that go through individual machining have a treacability number cast on and another individual sample with the same number cast on the casting (this is later removed and retained for Q.C.) Sometimes yet another one is removed for chemical & physical lab. tests before machining starts. When the samples are removed it is normally subject to independant witness and branding with unique ID stamps.

Not a big problem with iron castings but with steel castings there can often be a few casts to gat a radiograph defect free casting for highest classification , standard procedures often releases the defective ones for gouging and weld repairs for lesser quality jobs where possible.

 

Thanks Ruxy, but the question I am driving to is that should such a mark, whether it be QC or not be retained on an engine after manufacture.

 

I haven't known of such ID on a civi landrover block, but would a military one be less of an issue from an aesthetical point?

 

:undecided::undecided::undecided::undecided::undecided:

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I have come across a few marking similar on Ex-MOD engines , I would just paint over it as it is not of any importance.

 

More important is the decision to paint / dress the engine in the condition it would be ex-Solihull or how it would look after a ABRO recon / engine preservation with a preserved date stencilled on rocker cover etc.

 

Early engines (early 1960's) did have a sort of Fery grey finish , your colour would be as near SKY Blue / Duck Egg Green (Both RAF colours and arguably the same colour). Wit time , heat & grime - it does discolour to0 a pale lime colour that can fool.

 

IMG_0378.jpg

 

IMG_0712.jpg

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I have come across a few marking similar on Ex-MOD engines , I would just paint over it as it is not of any importance.

 

More important is the decision to paint / dress the engine in the condition it would be ex-Solihull or how it would look after a ABRO recon / engine preservation with a preserved date stencilled on rocker cover etc.

 

Early engines (early 1960's) did have a sort of Fery grey finish , your colour would be as near SKY Blue / Duck Egg Green (Both RAF colours and arguably the same colour). Wit time , heat & grime - it does discolour to0 a pale lime colour that can fool.

 

 

 

 

I see the upper photo has a plate saying it is reconditioned for ABRO, so it was put out to contract. At one time, British Rail at Derby had a contract to rebuild 2.25 petrol engines, the least said about them the better, they should have stuck to running trains :undecided:.

 

The engine paint used on rebuilds was Sky Blue ( not Duck Egg Green ). It has been used as an engine colour by the army since about 1950.

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I used to buy paint amongst other things at the Catterick Misc. Auctions , to get what I was after (on a pallet load) - I had to take all sorts inc. sufficient blackboard paint for several schools, aluminium wood primer (it was good stuff) etc. etc.

I did get the odd can of SKY Blue and have preached for years it is the correct colour , despite all the stuff being sold as Duck egg green. However to most peoples eyes (inc. mine) it does have more of a green cast than blue and this seems to be the reason DEG seems to have taken hold. However things are not so simple - The RAF had to use a new name of SKY blue for a existing "patented" colour called Camotint , the history of this is well established and accounted for on the internet. Camotint is SKY.

 

eg

 

Second World War

 

Appointed as a Squadron Leader and honorary Wing Commander on 22 September 1939, in the same period, Cotton was recruited to head up the fledgling RAF 1 Photographic Development Unit (PDU) at Heston Aerodrome. This unit provided important intelligence leading to successful air raids on key enemy installations.

 

With his experience and knowledge gained over Germany and other overflights, Cotton greatly improved the RAF's photo reconnaissance capabilities. The PDU was originally equipped with Bristol Blenheims, but Cotton considered these quite unsuitable, being far too slow, and he consequently "wheedled" a couple of Supermarine Spitfires. These Spitfires, later augmented by de Havilland Mosquitos, were steadily adapted to fly higher and faster, with a highly-polished surface, a special blue camouflage scheme developed by Cotton himself, and a series of modifications to the engines to produce more power at high altitudes. In 1940, Cotton also personally made another important reconnaissance flight with his Lockheed Electra Junior over Azerbaijan via Iraq.

 

etc.

 

Lucas' research, matching paint samples from various preserved aircraft bits, provides convincing evidence for six shades being used on BoB-period aircraft.

1) Sky Grey - light grey

2) Sky - the light grey-green Camotint-inspired shade

3) Sky Blue - light powder blue

4) BS381(1930) No.16 Eau-de-Nil - pale green (Duck-egg Green?)

5) BS381(1930) No.1 Sky Blue - aquamarine blue (Duck-egg Blue?)

6) an unidentified light blue-grey seen on some Gloster-built Hurricanes.

 

Apart from the last, all of these would have been available in the supply chain, and if Sky wasn't available, the Squadrons would have used the next nearest shade they could get their hands on. Even photographs aren't going to help you decide which shade to use - much research, using recent publications, is indicated. I think many older publications may have gone with the official Air Ministry line (Sky, Type S).

 

Aero modellers have had their knickers in a twist over this for many years now , me - - I just get a quality machine enamel mixed up by the 1 litre when I run out.

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The more old paint I uncover on casings I am begining to think the colour is Eau-de-Nil BS216.

 

It is definately grey with a hint of 'green'!

 

Does anyone agree with me? :undecided:

 

That is the colour of the cast iron castings, all alloy parts were natural, and pressed steel parts such as filler tube, sump, etc were black. this was how they left Solihull. It was not a particular good paint covering, more like a primer and done before castings were machined, so bare patches where milled. Think I might have written this before :undecided:

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Exactly - could even be what is known as a holding primer as it has hardly any gloss (most primers would have sufficient heat resistance - the hot stat is only 82 centigrade). The factory were not bothered about coating machined casting surfaces - traditional oil leaks took care of that A pukka machinery enamel is normally OK for direct to ferrous metal without primer. I doubt if the odd boil up would discolour either type of paint , some ancient NOS parts in packaging are probably the best guide. IMHO it is somewhere between Eau-de-Nil & SKY - but it is splitting hairs.

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