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My saracen...more detailed service info sought


oily

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83 BA 78, Saracen Mk5 A.P.C. Up-armoured. Spent alot of time in Germany, believed to have briefly had a trip out to Egypt to see Mr Gaddaffi, then rushed to N.I. to be with 7,11 & 21 Sqn R.C.T.

History Cards say something about 'Admin Squadron', came to me still fitted with Larkspur Harnesses, but paperwork states VHF converted, but no sign of any Clansman kit. Has Gpmg mount (sadly, as I want to obtain and fit a 30 cal)

Was at one point, also an Ambulance, originally, and converted to APC role in 1973.

Was 'New' in 1956, but didn't enter actve use until 1972, so was a long time in storage.

It was given a major overhaul in 1983, with new 'everything', pensioned off in 1991, to L.Jackson & Co, bought by Ian Young,(Military Machines International's Editor),in 2003, then bought by me in 2005, partially stripped (where needed), restored/recommissioned, back on the road for Sept 2007, now started up and driven at least once a week..... anyone know any more DETAIL about it was used for, when with it's various units:???

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That number sounded familiar to me, but this is an APC and every Saracen I used was an ACV, (Apart when I think about it from the troop Saracen APC in Omagh but we never took that out as we always used the 3/4 ton FFRs and Ferrets; and we had three squadron ambulances between in 1978-79.)

 

Admin Squadron suggests to me that the vehicle went onto an RCT regimental rather than squadron strength (does this by any chance coincide with its use as an ambulance?). I am insufficiently familiar with the RCT's OrBat to expand on this. I do not recall any RCT Squadrons being in the OrBat of a 1980-ish BAOR Armoured Division, so I believe they must have been Corps troops. Thinking about it, I now vaguely recall that there was an RCT unit at Bielefeld which ISTR was HQ 1 (BR) Corps, which would tend to substantiate that. On reflection I cannot remember ever seeing an RCT Regiment anywhere apart from 17(?) Port and Maritime Regiment round the corner from me at Marchwood. So my guess for Admin Squadron is that you have missed a detail and it is Admin Squadron of some other regiment. There was, I think an RCT regiment based at Muhlheim an der Ruhr in 1980 when I did my Linguist German course. The army's Higher Education Centre shared a barracks with this RCT unit. Then again, the RCT unit may well have just been a squadron. Whatever, it was outside the Corps area and therefore surely Army Troops.

 

A VHF conversion suggests to me that the vehicle was converted from using a C13 to a C42 LARKSPUR VHF set, rather than a Clansman conversion. In 1979 we replaced our Saracen ACVs with Sultan, taking the Larkspur sets and putting them into Sultan, then in 1980 we were issued Clansman and so at no time did we ever fit Clansman in Saracen. A little voice in the back of my head is whispering that we had to get Sultan before we got Clansman because there was a radio suppression issue with Saracen. But you know how wrong I can be.

 

Glad to hear you want the Three-Oh mount. To me, GPMGs in Ferrets and Saracens are an anachronism (even if technically this is not so).

 

Probably not a lot of use. Sorry.

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The only thing you can do is look for period photos, either in books or the internet. You may get lucky and find a website for past members of one of the units it served with, in which case you can post a message and see what happens. I was very lucky when searching for info on the Spartan, I managed to find the 26 Engineer Regiment forum and someone on there emailed me in service photos. I also had a previous crew member contact me about the Sabre, after seeing it on YouTube. It may be more difficult with an older vehicle, but worth a try!

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Thanks, ever so much, Mr AlienFTM, and Sirhc, nice to know, someone out there in hyperspace land shows a little interest in O.B.E.'s (other bugger's efforts!):-D....... Sadly I have had a few little problems with the Saracen, just recently, after a little 'camping trip' to Hambledon, Hampshire.

It appears that the brake bands in my gearbox have given up the ghost, ...-due to a rather sudden oil seal failure, most of my gearbox oil has gone AWOL,......:-(, ....Yes I do check all my fluid levels before driving!, but sometimes, I suppose, age creeps up on things. It broke down, 1st at Droxford,:??? then I got going again, only to stop again at Fair Oak,right on an awkward 'T Junction', opposite a very busy Petrol Station:cry:....Low-loader time....courtesy of Boarhunt Recovery:yay:, appointed Breakdown agent for my vehicle...... got read up all my EMERS now to work out easiest/quickest route to effect repairs.....:coffee:

 

once again, guys, thanks ever so much for, the info you have passed my way:-D

 

Kind Regards

 

Matt

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Oh, just a minor point, my Saracen may have been an ACV, at some point, as it has an odd battery charging panel, left and slightly to the rear of the driver's seat, below the n/s escape hatch, also a long frame was bolted to the floor, in the area between the rows of seats, and I believe that, originally it had only 1 set of side facing seats, and that Mr Young, obtained and fitted the 2nd set, it also had a vertical 'cage' next to the drivers seat, for it's radio installation, I still have this frame, but it is not fitted as it makes things easier for me to get in and out, the frame on the floor kept tripping people up too, so that is in my shed aswell.......

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I took my RAC Control Signaller AFV Class 1 course in the Summer of 1978 and reroled from rebroadcast Ferret driver to ACV operator. I spent the 1979 Exercise season on Zero Bravo, Command Troop's second ACV, and we must have replaced Saracen with Sultan some time probably in the second half of that year.

 

I remember Zero Alpha and Zero Bravo were supposedly identical and either one could and would take alternate command of the Battlegroup, but I also remember that one of them had a C13 High-Power to use to monitor the 3 Armd Div Command Net while the other used a C11/R210. Both were extremely high power sets, radiating a whole lot more than your average C13 that until recently had been fitted to all CVR(T)s to work the Combat Team (Squadron) Command Net.

 

There were warning signs all over about high voltages, not to hold on to the outside of the vehicle or to step from vehicle to earth or vice versa whilst transmitting on HF, because the nature of HF meant that the vehicle itself provided an earth link to the antenna. The HF set was mounted in a cage, but I am struggling to remember its exact location. I am sure it was on the left-hand side but my memory suggests it was behind the Commander's seat. The more I sit and think about this, it comes to me that the operator sat facing left in a Saracen ACV, as opposed to right in a Sultan. That suddenly makes more sense because I was struggling to reconcile Commander's position, HP HF set cage and bench seat. It is far easier in my mind (there's plenty of room) to see Commander's position, HP HF cage and map board. Glad I cleared that one up.

 

Memory is telling me that the ACV I thought of when I saw that VRN was Zero Charlie, the Int Cell ACV. Memory also tells me that Zero Charlie featured reverse-flow cooling (large pots on the engine decks, rubber matting forming a gap under the glacis plate and ducting around the driver's position). This would tally with a vehicle that had spent time in Libya or Egypt.

 

I don't suppose your log shows that your vehicle was transferred from the vehicle depot at Northumberland Barracks, Moenchengladbach to HQ Squadron 15/19H in November - December 1977 (when 15/19H and 3 Armd Div deployed to BAOR to become active in theatre on 1 January 1978)?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, Not overly sure what much of what is written on the record cards mean, except of course that which is obvious.... I shall try and upload some copies of the record cards... perhaps those of you more in the know than I, can explain what it is all about, ...-now that I have found them, some of the details such as regiments/squadrons etc can be finalised!....

 

here goes!

Vehicle History Card 1 Saracen.jpg

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Thanks ever so..., Mike, - I've been scouring all possible places that I've been able to think of. These are really good pictures, did you take them? if so where were they? and was it long ago?.... I could do with a few of the tyres, if they were about to be cut up for scrap!

 

Purely by luck, I made a nice 'discovery', when I bought a copy of a 'Tankograd' publication Britsh Special No. 9003.....

'BAOR Vehicles of the British Army of the Rhine 1945 - 1979'.....in it is a rather nice, large sized picture of Saracen 83 BA 77, ...only one didgit below mine..... Excellent book, save for a few 'mirror image' photos, -Ferrets with spare wheels on the offside, Beret badges over right eyes, ...that sort of thing. here's a few more pics of mine.....

83 BA 78 in Arena Overlord 2009.jpg

30mph to 0mph in 30 ft!.JPG

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'one' on one's way to a wedding, good job my 'commander' was wrapped up well, it was in Feb, last year! brrrrr!:shake:

 

2nd pic is, I think one that was taken on another Prom, for the son of a work colleague.......I'm pretty sure we upstaged eveything else that turned up!:cool2:

hurry up! we've got a wedding to get to!.jpg

Josh's Prom picture from Echo.jpg

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Thanks ever so..., Mike, - I've been scouring all possible places that I've been able to think of. These are really good pictures, did you take them? if so where were they? and was it long ago?.... I could do with a few of the tyres, if they were about to be cut up for scrap!

 

Purely by luck, I made a nice 'discovery', when I bought a copy of a 'Tankograd' publication Britsh Special No. 9003.....

'BAOR Vehicles of the British Army of the Rhine 1945 - 1979'.....in it is a rather nice, large sized picture of Saracen 83 BA 77, ...only one didgit below mine..... Excellent book, save for a few 'mirror image' photos, -Ferrets with spare wheels on the offside, Beret badges over right eyes, ...that sort of thing. here's a few more pics of mine.....

 

No not mine, they are from here

 

http://miliblog.co.uk/index.php?search_image=si

 

Just type Saracen into the search box...

 

I don't know where they are, but I reckon they probably have auction lot numbers pasted on the front, in the middle of the registraion....

Edited by antarmike
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06 and 57 both carry "wings" on the top sides which ISTR were ACV features (compare each with its neighbour). 06 also carries the XPM cage on the left rear mudguard which ditto.

 

No sign of reverse-flow cooling anywhere in the pics, nor in the docs of your vehicle having been on strength Moenchengladbach vehicle depot or 15/19H, so it would not appear to have been the vehicle I thought it might be.

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  • 2 years later...

I found an old ITN newsreel clip, Ref No. 156166,.... which happens to feature MY ACTUAL VEHICLE 83 BA 78!, ... but sadly they want an extortionate amount (£300 approx!) :shocked:, to download the 5-or-so minute clip, (of which my saracen features for about a minute!):cry:

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I found an old ITN newsreel clip, Ref No. 156166,.... which happens to feature MY ACTUAL VEHICLE 83 BA 78!, ... but sadly they want an extortionate amount (£300 approx!) :shocked:, to download the 5-or-so minute clip, (of which my saracen features for about a minute!):cry:

 

You candown load the movie as a preview and run it in quicktime player hope that helps

 

Add a link to the video so that we can all see it

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