Deep Sea FWD

This vehicle was discovered a few miles South of Oahu, Hawaii about 400m deep using deep diving submersibles. There are a number of other various vehicles in the area in different states of deterioration. This one seems to be an identical match to a couple of the FWD Model B's I looked at in the gallery. Can anyone expand on this? Anyone have any history on these vehicles and their use in Hawaii? I suspect they are military versions which I believe were first used in 1917. When did they stop making them? Any other details anyone can offer would be much appreciated.

aloha,

Steve

In better condition than a lot of dry land finds.

Geat photo, keep them coming... the WW1 guys will be out of bed soon:-D

Wowww. Wht a picture. There are several people who were looking for FWD parts to complete restorations. Never once did i think of suggesting Oahu.

I have an advert from FWD somewhere which talks about a number of FWD's going to Hawaii to equip an artillery batallion during WW1. I always wondered what happened to them. Do you think they were deliberately dumped at sea or did they just fall overboard on the journey?

Amazing. What else was there? I am still looking for Peerless parts.

Give it a week or so and Tim'll have it running

Might take a bit longer than a week, but at least on the plus side we wont have to worry about leaking water.

I found this advert in the April 7, 1917 Literary Digest. Sorry about the poor quality.

It says:

"After exhaustive tests - after the United States Army's experiences with trucks in Mexico - all the fifty one trucks sent with the motor truck regiment were FWD trucks. These were sent to Honolulu - two thousand miles from factory or service station - a reason for absolute assurance of dependability".

It would seem quite likely that the underwater FWD is one of the 51 in this picture. A few days after this was published the US Army declared war on Germany. FWD production was then diverted to the European theatre

Tim (too)

Wow! Thanks alot for the advert. That was just the sort of thing I was hoping to see. I think your definitely right that it was one of the 51. We have seen several of these vehicles, some inverted, some with one end or the other missing, and alot of bare chassis in which a few have tires like this one. I've a hunch they dumped them all out here when they were finished with them. They're to spread out to have washed off or have gone down with a barge. This one is certainly one of the better ones. I also have a truck image that is not one of these. Can't quite pin down the make exactly so I'll try and get it on here in the next couple days and maybe one of the expert here can.

aloha,

Steve

I expect that you are right in that. I used to live on an Island many many years ago and historically they would get rid of old cars by pushing them off a cliff into the sea. I think they banned that practice a long time ago and now take everything back to the mainland. It would make perfect sense to load all of these ex military trucks onto a ship and dump them at sea. It is also quite possible that the other vehicles that you have seen might not be military at all, but i am very much looking forwards to seeing pictures of them. For the FWD to land on all of its wheels really is quite remarkable as it must have tumbled as it descended to the bottom.

Interesting to see that it has a cast iron rad as opposed to the brass one that they were initially issued with in 1917, but this was no doubt a later replacement as the brass ones cracked very easily.

Tim (too)

What I an incredible picture and this place never stops amazing me with the info that keeps coming up.

And yes please keep the pictures coming!

Do we start buying snorkels and floating cranes then? :-D

Here is another vehicle from the same area. It appears to be another FWD, however it is different that it has the spoked wheels with an inner ring with in the spokes. Does anyone know if this is an earlier or later model? I saw a photo in the gallery of a brown FWD that has spokes like this one. Are the wheels the only difference?

aloha,

Steve

Hi Steve

Thanks for the very interesting pictures. The original wheels for the FWD's were made out of wood. However, with the enormous demand made on FWD to churn out their trucks their wheelwrights could not keep up with the demand, so they contracted out the making of the wheels to other companies. I think there are four different types of wheel used. Wooden spoke, metal disc, round metal spoke and angular metal spokes like those in your photos. The first ones that went to Hawaii would have had wooden spokes, but were no doubt replaced with metal spokes when the climate got to them (wooden spokes dont last well).

Hope that helps

Tim (too)

Thanks Tim for the helpful information. Interesting that most of the FWD's we've found have the metal disc wheels and this one has the angular. I guess it must mean they were changing them out at different times and they received whatever was available at the time. This next vehicle doesn't not appear to be an FWD. Looking at the twin back tires, spoked front, wheel fender, and just the general shape, I'm guessing it might be a USA "Liberty" flatbed truck. It was around the same time frame as the FWD's and was also a military vehicle. The full length image is from two video captures I photoshoped together. The other was shot with a point-and-shoot camera taken by the pilot through the viewport. Any ID, insight, history, or general comments are appreciated.

aloha,

Steve

Hi Steve

What another fabulous photo. It is hard to say for certain as most of the distinctive parts that could positively identify it are covered in marine growth but it does indeed appear to be a Liberty B. Here is a lubrication chart of the Liberty which shows the bare chassis and should make a good comparisson.

It is a pity that the top of the radiator is not visible as that would identify it for certain, but the metal wheels are late to post war and the shape and number of spokes matches fine. A pity the rear hubs are indistinguishable as that would help show what it was.

It is amazing that the front mudguards have lasted so well. You would think that these would be the first bits to go.

The first contract for Liberty B's (8,000 of them) commenced on 25th May 1918, with 9,452 finished by the wars end. Due to the demand for trucks in Europe taking precedent it would be likely that this one was delivered after the end of the war which would explain the metal wheels. Also at this time as the US Army was trying to standardise truck design, similar sized general service trucks (like Packard and Pierce Arrow) were being phased out of service. Therefore just on the basis of what trucks were available for transfer to Hawaii it is almost certainly a Liberty.

I hope this helps

Tim (too)

Thanks again Tim for the feedback and the great overhead view. You're a wealth of information. The next vehicle I think will be a bit of a challenge. I only have this one pilot photo as the video was pretty much junk. It was found years ago when or camera system was not as reliable and during our tests dives sometimes there's bugs to be worked out. Anyway this one seems to be mostly radiator and rust. The front bumper appears to be present and I had thought the portion behind the rad was the cab, but my boss (who was piloting that dive) said it was the firewall between the engine and cab. It was found in the Defensive Sea Area a few miles directly South of Pearl, an area mostly littered with WWII landing craft. It is pretty far from the other WWI era vehicles. It'd be happy to just get a time frame on this one.

aloha,

Steve

I was told that the UK armed forces would on occasion dump vehicles overboard on return from overseas, though I can't remember why. Can anyone verify this? Fantastic photos Steve. Thanks for posting.

The Radiator looks a bit like the Peerless - But I expect that Tim will know more!

Tony

Well, what another fabulous photograph. At first glance i thought it looked a bit like a Peerless, but then realised that (despite my dearest hope that you had in fact found one) it couldnt be. I then gave it some more thought and then everything came together. You said:

It'd be happy to just get a time frame on this one.

 

but i think i can do more than that. I just need to look through some photographs and will post again in a little bit.

Tim (too)

On looking at it, the first thing that is apparent is the rad - which looked a bit Peerless like. However, it was slightly the wrong shape so i discounted that. It also has a massive metal bumper which is strange for a WW1 truck. What confuses the issue further is what appears to be a cab which you said is a fire wall. I could not think of any WW1 truck that has a firewall like that, and so high above the rad, making it look very odd indeed.

So, turning to context, you have been showing photos of WW1 trucks, yet this is located in a WW2 dumping ground, so lets consider WW2 trucks. Then suddenly the penny dropped and it became obvious. It is actually a lot smaller than i first thought. Not a three ton truck at all, but a 1/2 tonner. A Dodge in fact. Probably a T207 a bit like this:

The softop cab and the windscreen are long gone. The hood has rotted away and grill dropped off showing the radiator, but the scuttle remains and there is quite a distance in hight between the two. The heavy front bumper remains and you can make out the gap between the two.

So i would say that this was made in 1941 and was one of 31,935 made - although that includes other body types.

I am no expert on these modern (WW2) vehicles though, but we have plenty of Dodge experts on the forum and i am sure they will have something to say.

Tim (too)

Gordon M would be the best bet for Dodges. Can you give some idea of dimensions? Keep the pictures coming.

The bumper, Fender in US talk? Does definitley have the look of the later Dodges.

Better angle picture for comparison.

Wow!!! I am truly amazed. You identified that vehicle from the radiator, firewall, and front bumper, with only the additional clue that it "might" be WWII era. From looking at the great pictures.....I am convinced you are correct. Well done!........and a big mahalo (hawaiian "thank you") to everyone who posted. So.....here's another tough one (I think). A few more photos on this "thing", but I wish we had some other angles. To me, this appears to be a towed vehicle (carriage, cart, caisson, limber), as that appears to towing bar with some kind of forked latch leaning upright at the front of the wagon (please excuse any improper nomenclature). But you can see forward of this another wheel and what looks like the front end of a vehicle. I suspected that perhaps this was the front end of a different vehicle which happen to land right next to it, but the pilot said he thought they were all one vehicle....which....looking at the tow bar....makes no sense to me. Additional clue, this is in the vacinity of the other WWI vehicles, which include a couple Holt 5t tractors (I'll post them later), so this could have been part of the motorize heavy field artillery unit started formed 1917. I'm probably off on this, but forward of the back wheels there is an angular shape that almost looks like it may have had tracks, perhaps the wheels were added later? or maybe they were interchangeable? Just a thought. The rocks on it are from dumped dredge spoils.

Good luck.

aloha,

Steve

Just send a couple of first class air tickets! We'll glady come over and confirm the identification :-D Happy to help. Can you post a few general pictures the whole area of research is fascinating!

The lateast pictures could be a trailer. The upright maybe a drawbar. Many early trailers were also adaptable to be horse drawn.

Bit of a shot in the dark but could this be a dump truck and the part sticking up be tipping gear. I think we need the Goslings expertise here.

Degsy, you beat me to it and yes you are quite right. The sticking up bit is indeed part of the tipping gear. Hang on, i will go through my photos. There is a surviving Nash Quad which still has that gear. I think it was made by Heil Co (who still trade today) and has two pulleys on the top with lots of cable going round it. I need the photos. Will get back on this tomorrow.

Tim (too)