WW1 Thornycroft restoration

So the fact that they chose to include holes points to castings.

Surely the inclusion of holes is purely a function of the need to get a spanner on the heads of the bolts which hold the flexible coupling to the gearbox output spider?

As in the case of the hood frame stays, I think I would have fabricated this component but maybe that is simply because pattern making isn't part of my skillset and I don't have a friendly local foundry. Neither, for that matter, do I possess the legendary Gosling eye for authenticity and detail which makes following this thread so fascinating.

Surely the inclusion of holes is purely a function of the need to get a spanner on the heads of the bolts which hold the flexible coupling to the gearbox output spider?

A good point ! Thank you. But I still think that the original is cast.

David

Perhaps Steve should contact these people to see what else they might have in stock?

Barry.

If only!

Steve

We seem to be reaching a concensus in that they were cast but probably in steel. As I am after more toughness than grey iron but we are only driving a leather coupling, I shall have a go and get them cast in SG iron. That will be the most straightforward solution I think. Thank you for all of your thoughts.

I went down to Devon at the weekend, mainly to confirm that my bonnet drawing was correct. I had originally decided on the front and rear profiles and made some plywood patterns.

Unfortunately, when held up they were not quite right.

I made some more which I brought down to check and these proved acceptable so the drawing has been signed off and sent to another pal to make us a bonnet.

In the mean time, the timber for the floor has arrived from Mark the chippy.

These are a super job and went in beautifully. However, we now needed the bolts to secure them. As we have mentioned before, old coach bolts have square nuts and these are proving surprisingly difficult to get in this country. Fortunately for us, the UNC bolts made in the USA still have square nuts so every time Time visits his in-laws, he comes back with boxes of bolts in his luggage. Goodness knows what 'Homeland Security' make of him! A quick dip in the supply found the perfect bolts so that was that problem sorted.

The right hand side has a slot for the gear shift so that was cut and the second piece fitted.

We couldn't resist pushing the seat forward to its correct position.

A couple of rebates to clear the bolt heads and we had a floor!

Dad had previously prepared the steel angles to hold the seat down so now that it was correctly positioned, we drilled the last four holes and fitted them underneath.

The front is held down by coach bolts through a rail glued to the front panel. The rear has a pair of steel brackets which are currently in manufacture. The seat can be finally secured next time.

Interestingly, it appears that the pedal slot will go through the full width of the front plank. I think we will leave cutting that until the pedals are finally set up. I am hoping that it will become clearer then!

Steve

Overhere we did see a lot of those square nuts in stoves. Maybe an idea to ask an stove maker or repairer for them?

On the subject of square nuts have a look on dragon driving there is a chap that sells them in all different sizes for carriages!

Thanks, both of you. Well worth keeping in mind for next time.

Steve :-)

Here's a link to the website of the supplier

http://steveandjaneo.magix.net/

price for 20 works out at 16 pounds for each m6 nut!!!!!

or have I missed something

price for 20 works out at 16 pounds for each m6 nut!!!!!

or have I missed something

You did better than me, I could not get that site to work in Firefox or Chrome. Some text only, nothing else.

You did better than me, I could not get that site to work in Firefox or Chrome. Some text only, nothing else.

I was stunned too... but after re-reading I think you should read it as :

prices :

20 of m6=£3

20 of m8=£6

20 of m10=£8

20 of m12 =£10

20 of m16 =£12

"prices20 of m6=£320 of m8=£620 of m10=£820 of m12 =£1020 of m16 =£112"

We seem to be reaching a concensus in that they were cast but probably in steel. As I am after more toughness than grey iron but we are only driving a leather coupling, I shall have a go and get them cast in SG iron. That will be the most straightforward solution I think. Thank you for all of your thoughts.

 

I went down to Devon at the weekend, mainly to confirm that my bonnet drawing was correct. I had originally decided on the front and rear profiles and made some plywood patterns.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127143[/ATTACH]

 

Unfortunately, when held up they were not quite right.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127132[/ATTACH]

 

I made some more which I brought down to check and these proved acceptable so the drawing has been signed off and sent to another pal to make us a bonnet.

 

In the mean time, the timber for the floor has arrived from Mark the chippy.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127134[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127133[/ATTACH]

 

These are a super job and went in beautifully. However, we now needed the bolts to secure them. As we have mentioned before, old coach bolts have square nuts and these are proving surprisingly difficult to get in this country. Fortunately for us, the UNC bolts made in the USA still have square nuts so every time Time visits his in-laws, he comes back with boxes of bolts in his luggage. Goodness knows what 'Homeland Security' make of him! A quick dip in the supply found the perfect bolts so that was that problem sorted.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127135[/ATTACH]

 

The right hand side has a slot for the gear shift so that was cut and the second piece fitted.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127136[/ATTACH]

 

We couldn't resist pushing the seat forward to its correct position.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127137[/ATTACH]

 

A couple of rebates to clear the bolt heads and we had a floor!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127141[/ATTACH]

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127142[/ATTACH]

 

Dad had previously prepared the steel angles to hold the seat down so now that it was correctly positioned, we drilled the last four holes and fitted them underneath.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127138[/ATTACH]

 

The front is held down by coach bolts through a rail glued to the front panel. The rear has a pair of steel brackets which are currently in manufacture. The seat can be finally secured next time.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127139[/ATTACH]

 

Interestingly, it appears that the pedal slot will go through the full width of the front plank. I think we will leave cutting that until the pedals are finally set up. I am hoping that it will become clearer then!

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]127140[/ATTACH]

 

Steve

This is starting to come together now Steve

You'll make your deadline

Glenn.

GLMelectrical

I was stunned too... but after re-reading I think you should read it as :

 

prices :

20 of m6=£3

20 of m8=£6

20 of m10=£8

20 of m12 =£10

20 of m16 =£12

 

"prices20 of m6=£320 of m8=£620 of m10=£820 of m12 =£1020 of m16 =£112"

THe other ad on thre is slightly cheaper.

http://www.dragondriving.co.uk/renovation.php

I read it as 20 nuts for £3 which is £0.15 per nut. Am I being dim?

Thanks for the link though. The next lorry is a Peerless with wooden wheels and a wheelwright is a good contact to have!

Steve

I have been ploughing through this fascinating thread from the beginning - less than half way there so far.

My reason for joining is that I have acquired a pile of Thornycroft J parts, and am researching as much information as I can. The nearest to a J locally is an X model not far away with the same M4 engine.

I will keep reading and post further when I get to completion of the engine restoration.

Ian

Hello Ian!

Very pleased to read that more bits have survived and good luck with it! We shall be glad to help in any way that we can and ask anything!

We shall be interested to see some pictures when you can manage it - especially of the engine!

Tony

Welcome to the Antipodean hard rubber club Ian. Did these parts come from Oberon, by any chance, and has anyone followed up on the chassis located near Inverell? Maybe uncatalogued items from Peter's recent clearing sale at Bathurst as he did have 2 at one time, I know he sold one a while back but does he still have the other one? Chain drive rescued some Thorny J parts a while back and they would be available.

Ian contacted me the following day after purchase and I was able to date the engine as he had photographed the ID plate. That is from chassis 8997 delivered 5-2-1920. There is a further NZ connection as it was dispatched to A. Hatrick & Co. who as NZ agents also had offices in Sydney.

Doug

I can confirm they came from Peter's sale at Bathurst. There were two chassis, both had been made into farm trailers. I am going out in a few days to retrieve the second and more complete engine, and will get a bit more information from Peter on their provenance. I will report in more detail later, particularly on the second engine, as I have no ID for it yet.

Ian

We seem to be reaching a concensus in that they were cast but probably in steel. As I am after more toughness than grey iron but we are only driving a leather coupling, I shall have a go and get them cast in SG iron. That will be the most straightforward solution I think. Thank you for all of your thoughts.

Is there any chance of using ADI? (Austempered Ductile Iron). That's basically cast-iron with a post-casting heat-treatment.

Excellent stuff, I did some fatigue testing work on it for JCB (a long time ago) and it was impressively strong and tough.

(And I pretty much failed to make it fail by fatigue, the fatigue resistance is excellent)

http://www.bascastings.co.uk/austempered-ductile-iron/

This foundry seems to suggest they have made ADI parts for artists/sculptors, which sounds promising for one-offs.

http://www.durhamfoundry.com/austempered-ductile-iron.html

I can confirm they came from Peter's sale at Bathurst. There were two chassis, both had been made into farm trailers. I am going out in a few days to retrieve the second and more complete engine, and will get a bit more information from Peter on their provenance. I will report in more detail later, particularly on the second engine, as I have no ID for it yet.

Ian

Ian,

When you see Peter, please pass on my regards. I worked at the Paynesville Slipyard and 25 years ago or more we restored a little steam boat, built back in the 1800's, for Peter and I was also involved with a boat called the Wanderer which Peter had for a while and it is now back in Paynesville. Thanks Rick.

Is there any chance of using ADI? (Austempered Ductile Iron). That's basically cast-iron with a post-casting heat-treatment.

 

Thanks Andy. Yes, I did think about it but as I will be brazing the ends on, I think it likely that I will mess up the heat treatment. I'm sure that SG will be fine.

At the end of my last post, we were fixing the seat down. At the front are two coach bolts but the rear is secured with two straps so I have made these up. Starting off with two flat strips with holes.

Then a slot and two studs.

These were welded by our senior welder at work. I don't want to risk them failing whilst I am sitting on it!

Finally, a couple of hours with a file finished them off. They are now in the paint shop.

I have been doing all those boring things like fixing leaks in the attic and broken horseless carriages which just have to be done no matter how little one wants to. I have, however, found some time to make up the silencer baffles. I cut them out with a nibbler which is a wonderful if very frustrating tool to use. It can get anywhere but maintaining a straight line or constant curve eludes me.

I don't have any to copy but there is a small picture in the parts book. Unfortunately, the book doesn't give quantities of parts but I have guessed four and spent a long time counting holes to get the right number in the plates. I think there are 117 altogether with three larger ones for the spacing bars.

I used a hand vice to hold the stack of discs and drilled them through (with one out of position. Very irksome!)

I screwed the stack to a board which I held in the four-jaw and turned the periphery.

Something else in the box ready for use.

I was fortunate to be able to attend Duncombe Park Rally near Thirsk on Sunday last where I met John Marshall and saw his J type. I had a ride and he has very kindly loaned me his spare high-level water branch from the top of the engine. Unfortunately for me, he wants it back but it will make an excellent pattern to make a copy. I just need to make up a core box.

Core box is the next task, once I have worked out how to do it. Lots of MDF in this one! Will keep you posted.

Steve

In regards to your core boxes.... been there done that!

I found the simplest way was to make male masters than use those to cast the actual core box in plaster-of-paris.

Love seeing the progress and I cant wait to here that engine roar into life!

Best regards,

Terry

I found the simplest way was to make male masters than use those to cast the actual core box in plaster-of-paris.

I was wondering if that would work, and also if the male masters could be made by silicone-casting the internal shape of the original part. (this might have to be done in stages and involving the use of cunning at the three-way intersection)