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WW1 Thornycroft restoration


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What a great job on the fuel tank so far, I am sure the result will be more than perfect!

 

Thanks Marcel. This is certainly the toughest lorry we have tackled so far as we have been so short of parts and those that we have are pretty ropy. I shall be pleased to see the tank installed!

 

On that front, we are shortly going to need the tank straps to hold it down. However, those that we have are somewhat past it!

 

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Fortunately, the end fittings can be salvaged.

 

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Rivet heads taken off with the angle grinder and then the rivets were punched out.

 

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A good wire brushing and a die run up the thread soon brought them back. The straps are just a plain flat strip of steel with holes for the rivets.

 

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All ready to bend to shape and cut to length once the tank is soldered up.

 

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Steve :)

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Hi Tim,

 

I was very interested to see the pics of the Leyland model. A couple of things stood out in particular on this early J type, firstly the leather seat cushions, which was a surprise and also, all the driver's controls being finished in black. I am assuming that this is an accurate representation, having been built by Thornycrofts themselves ? Although the shape of the radiator top looks a bit odd to me ?

 

Whilst on the subject of leather I have convinced myself from studying photos, that the canopy straps were originally fitted with leather ends sewed on to the webbing straps, these had buckles half way up the leather portion and were thus attached to the radiator brush guard, allowing the straps to be quickly removed to raise the cab. The model has leather ends but no webbing straps, perhaps webbing was difficult to find in that scale.

 

I noted the silencer is visible in the mirror beneath the model, which I'm sure did not escape your attention !

 

Regards

Tomo

Edited by Tomo.T
Confusion of Goslings
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I suspect that there is some licence with the model although it may be of the design intent. Seat material might well have been of leather early in the war but changing to canvas towards the end. However, I don't have definitive evidence either way. The US army lorries generally seem to have leather upholstery but that may be due to better availability over there. On the other hand, all of the straps I have seen have been of leather so I am surprised to hear of a composite construction with webbing. It is all intrigueing and I should be very pleased to see some firm evidence!

 

I would be very surprised if the controls were black. Certainly, after the first repaint, they would have been 'service colour'. A second colour makes efficient production that much more difficult and if they did it, I can't see them doing it for long.

 

This is all guesswork but it is an interesting puzzle! As an aside, I wonder how many of these models were made? I am sure that I have seen one at Duxford and one at the IWM London as well as an AA gun lorry version over the years. Unless of course, this one keeps moving about!

 

Steve :)

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Hi Steve,

 

Close inspection of the Pic enlarged from Tim's excellent book, of the lady painters at Thornycrofts will reveal what I mean.

There are pointed ends to the straps, (not seen on Webbing) and a clear dividing line between the darker leather ends and the lighter webbing straps.attachment.php?attachmentid=128522&stc=1

Thornycroft 51a - Copy_zpsfhocpq1f.jpg

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Also, just visible in this pic is the Drivers Instruction Plate on the end of the fuel tank. It is printed in white on a dark background contrary to expectations, perhaps showing up less than a white plate? The seat is unfortunately not visible and the jury is still out on whether that steering wheel is black or not !

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I think Tomo.T is probably correct about the instruction plate on the end of the fuel tank but it is possible that it is a cast plate and the "white" lettering is just the light reflecting off the raised letters in the same way that the coach bolts in the cargo body are "picked out in white".

 

Just a thought...

 

David

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That is a good picture with lots of interest. I hadn't picked up on the straps so you may well be right, especially if big bits of leather were becoming difficult to get later in the war.

 

The tank plate is curious too and we had spotted that. The plates on the Portsmouth bus and also the Shaftsbury J now owned by Mr Henshaw, are originals and they are black text on a white ground so they are what we used to make ours up. This photo is the only one I have seen to show the reverse. It is amazing what you find the more that you look. Of course, we tend to assume that all of the vehicles were built to be the same but there will be variations through the production run. In my professional life, we have trouble building two machines absolutely identical, let alone 5000!

 

Steve :)

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I am pleased that you like the composite strap theory. I happened to have a couple of WD leather straps, with buckles, from the 2nd WW that were looking for a job. Also found some suitable 1 1/2" webbing on eBay and a Saddler. I am picking up the result tomorrow. Should be a great improvement on John's current nylon cargo straps. Might get them set further apart too!

 

I must agree with you, the only Drivers Instruction plates I have seen have been black on white, but white on service green would be more suitable for Military use perhaps. Although camouflage was not hugely important as motor transport did not venture that close to the front line as a rule. A good example was the painting of radiator surrounds in service colour, which drivers found caused overheating and it became common practice to remove the paint and polish the ally instead. Later Thornies were turned out with polished radiators from the factory.

 

Tomo

WW1-MILITARY-VEHICLE-TRUCK-LORRY-DEPOT-FACTORY.jpg

Edited by Tomo.T
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The plan is to tin both sides of each joint before rivetting and then warm the joint and add more solder as necessary afterwards. The rivets should be fuel tight but I will solder the heads individually if needed. We won't need to use sealant.

 

Famous last words!

 

Steve :)

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Hi Steve,

 

Close inspection of the Pic enlarged from Tim's excellent book, of the lady painters at Thornycrofts will reveal what I mean.

There are pointed ends to the straps, (not seen on Webbing) and a clear dividing line between the darker leather ends and the lighter webbing straps.

 

Possibly. But I believe that the end of the leather straps were sometimes cut, reversed and then reattached so that the end of the strap once it goes through the buckle is still shiny side up. When Mark did our leather on the Dennis straps he did this automatically without us asking him to do it as it was how he thought it would have been done.

Edited by Great War truck
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The timber this time is an old bench top which is a super piece of old pine. So much nicer than MDF!
Modelboard (PU foam) is even nicer, but you probably don't want to pay market rates for it. It makes a cleaner mess than MDF

 

Attaching a print to the wide end was trickier so I started by sticking a piece of MDF to the face using Araldite.
Ah yes! Araldite, the Greek goddess of adhesives. :-) I recently heard a rumour that Araldite had been bought by EvoStick and the name was gone, but sedulous internet research proved the rumour to be unfounded.
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Possibly. But I believe that the end of the leather straps were sometimes cut, reversed and then reattached so that the end of the strap once it goes through the buckle is still shiny side up. When Mark did our leather on the Dennis straps he did this automatically without us asking him to do it as it was how he thought it would have been done.

 

Ok, Tim, I take your point, but both sides of the straps are visible in the picture, The leather parts are dark both sides and what I am suggesting is the webbing section, is much lighter front and back. The ends have been tucked behind the cross straps and the way the straps are hanging seems to me to be unlike leather. Also, a faint weave effect is just visible on some of the webbing parts.

 

The enlarged picture is still very clear and I wonder if it was originally from a glass plate negative? Would it be possible to view the strap ends on the front vehicle in high resolution? They are just out of shot in your picture.

Edited by Tomo.T
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Possibly. But I believe that the end of the leather straps were sometimes cut, reversed and then reattached so that the end of the strap once it goes through the buckle is still shiny side up. When Mark did our leather on the Dennis straps he did this automatically without us asking him to do it as it was how he thought it would have been done.

 

That's it, Tim! The line across the strap is where it changes from the shiny top surface to the rough underside.

 

Tomo. I am interested in your comment about the lorries coming out of Thornycrofts with unpainted radiators. I have just been through Tim's collection and all of the Thornys in service in Europe are painted. One Indian Army one has been polished but the remainder are service colour, commonly with the letters polished on the top tank. Where did you pick up about the lack of paint on later vehicles?

 

Steve :)

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Steve, please see previous reply, also photo of new lorries, post #2533. The information about overheating came from a book about the experiences of a wartime Thornycroft driver. I will plough through it again and try to find the relevant bit. Frank's War in a Thornycroft (I think) If not there, it is from one of the War Diaries ?

 

Tomo

Edited by Tomo.T
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Ah yes, I have that book on my 'to be read' pile. I will pick it up next! Thanks.

 

That is a super photo but I think they are Leylands, who did polish their radiators, rather than Thornycrofts.

 

Come to think of it, I am surprised that anyone would spend the time, effort and money to polish these aluminium castings in a war production environment. Dad spent hours cleaning up our Thorny radiator and then we painted it anyway! Dennis thought it worthwhile to polish theirs to quite a high standard but I can't see what they got out of it. Another fascinating corner of history.

 

Steve :)

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Oh ! Well spotted. That would explain the strange wheels then. The book is quite heavy going with a lot of intrusive and repetitive corrections, however, there are occasional nuggets buried within. Good luck.

 

As far as polishing radiators goes, I am sure the intention was to improve heat dissipation, but we may need a scientist to explain why !

Edited by Tomo.T
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Steve,

 

Why did you join the two halves of the core box together? With them joined I would have thought it would be difficult to ram. Wouldn't it be easier for them to be left split and the two core halves be produced separately and then joined together with core glue? If Bridport use CO2 core sand then the larger exposed surface of split core halves would give quicker setting.

 

Barry.

 

We took the pattern to the foundry yesterday where I had a chance to talk to the moulder. He said that he would probably make the core in one piece and ram it from the ends rather than two halves glued as they occasionally get gassing problems caused by the glue.

 

It was nice to see inside the foundry but that has to be the most horrible working environment I have ever seen!

 

Steve :)

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Almost certainly the bows on the original assembly were “one piece” and steamed and bent around but we have opted for an alternative in laminating thinner sections of Ash around a template

 

I found this video by accident today:

 

I don't know if the technique would be applicable to hood bows.

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We steamed the rail around the front of the Garrett cab roof, which is about an inch thick. A big piece of plywood with some blocks on it as the 'mould', and a couple of hours in a piece of old flexible chimney liner with the end stuffed with rags, with steam from the boiler in at the other end, and it worked fine.

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I have been following this project for some time and wanted to congratulate and thank you for the fascinating details you provide. I came across the thread when searching for details of the J Class chassis. Whilst I have a Thornycroft J chassis drawing it did not provide the level of detail I needed. Your photographs did that and helped me in designing a 2mm scale model of the 'J', which was designed as a kit of parts in 3D CAD for 3D printing in plastic.

attachment.php?attachmentid=128600&stc=1

In the photo that's a penny alongside the model. With my son we also created a 2mm scale model of part of the 1930s Thornycroft Factory, which has been exhibited at the Thornycroft Society's Basingstoke Festival of Transport held each May.

 

When you start showing your 'J' it would be nice to see it in Basingstoke.

Edited by davidsmith_uk
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Oh ! Well spotted. That would explain the strange wheels then. The book is quite heavy going with a lot of intrusive and repetitive corrections, however, there are occasional nuggets buried within. Good luck.

 

As far as polishing radiators goes, I am sure the intention was to improve heat dissipation, but we may need a scientist to explain why !

 

Polishing a surface reduces it's ability to dissipate Heat. Radiation is much better from a black surface than polished. This is why thermos flasks and space blankets are silvered and electronics heatsinks are black anodised. Roughness can also help with heat transfer to airflow. Paint would only reduce cooling if it was very thick. The radiator fins dont have to be black as despite the name most cooling is by conduction to the airflow. Polishing a radiator surround and header tank will reduce cooling slightly and was probably done for appearance.

http://www.npl.co.uk/reference/faqs/what-is-emissivity-and-why-is-it-important-(faq-thermal)

 

Great work on the J!

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