Incident in Northern Ireland

Anybody have decent records they can refer on pertaining to incidents in Northern Ireland?

I have been told my Humber Pig may have been involved in a road side bomb incident, killing the commander of the vehicle, who may have been a black soldier. It is thought the vehicle was out on its very first patrol, and was still in a desert camouflage scheme when it was hit.

There is indications still on the vehicle that it was in some form of blast and i have posted pictures in the "Humber Pig pictures" thread.

Given that it was still in desert cam when it was sent out on patrol, would put it in the earlier years of the troubles, particularly as it is a MK1 vehicle before they were uparmoured.

Would the Army have records of such incidents, i would of thought so, but i have no idea where you can access that sort of thing, must of been some sort of investigation work and outcome report of the incident?

Apologies about the vagueness, but the source was pretty vague, somebody who knew somebody who seen a photo of the vehicle and seemed to think it was the same one they drove.

Would the Army have records of such incidents, i would of thought so, but i have no idea where you can access that sort of thing, must of been some sort of investigation work and outcome report of the incident?

 

 

You can request the information under the Freedom of Informatiom Act, I've used it a few times with good results. You should have a rough date from your vehicle history card, I would expect that if the vehicle had been in a blast the repair should be recorded on there. If you have a date I have a few books I can look through..

MOD FOI http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/

Unfortunately after doing a search at the RLC museum, they didnt have a record card for my vehicle.

All i do know is that the Army sold it off in 1967 at Ruddington, but as anyone with a Pig knows, they then bought loads of them back, for N.I. duties.

Is there any lists of incidents, recording fatalities, i know its bordering on the macabre, but i would like to nail down if my vehicle 05BK61 was involved or not!

How can it be macabre Adam? If the vehicle was involved in an incident, then you have a solid memorial to the sacrifice.

The only one I have come across is the following, but not in desert cam..

December 5th 1975.

A VCP manned by a detachment of No.3 Company, Welsh Guards stopped a Cortina with two passengers as it was approaching Newry from the South.

The routine search procedure was carried out, yeilding a small bag of detonators under the seat.

The Car was taken to Newry for detailed search which yeilded 150 lbs. of ANFO explosives, 50lbs. of CO-OP mix explosive and 23 detonators.

It was the policy of the Welsh Guards' Company in Newry to maintain a close watch on the main road running south of the town across the border to Dundalk and Dublin. This task was normally allocated to a heavy mobile patrol, consisting of one Saracen APC and one "Pig" APC, with a combined strength of seven guards-men.

On December 5th this patrol had carried out a routine VCP about one mile south of Newry, and was returning when, at the junction ofthe Dublin and Forkhill roads, it fell foul of a command detonated land mine sunk into a culvert.

The resultant explosion, later estimated at 500 lbs. strength, lifted the saracen well clear of the road, and dropped it firmly on its side some distance away.

The "Pig", following a short distance behind, was also caught by the blast, which ruptured its fuel tanks and disposed of one of the wheels. Miraculously no one was killed, though two members of the Saracen were serverely injured.

The commander of the "Pig", relatively unshaken by the explosion, observed a figure making a rapid departure from a garage two hundred metres further down the road. He gave chase but to no avail.

After some time in hospital the two injured members of the patrol were able to return to duty.

This audacious attack was made against two armoured vehicles in broad daylight on the main Belfast-Dublin road. Had the bomb itself been properly constructed the results would have been worse, No further attack was made during the Welsh Guards' tour.

Hells bells! That would need more than an asprin for a headache!

Thats quite some testimony to how strong they built those vehicles, and quite remarkable bordering on a miracle that there wasnt any deaths.

hi,

do you have a date for the insodent as i could look threw some of the local paper arcives as i live in N.I.

Adam I'm afraid 05 BK 61 was not one of the pigs that was recovered for use in NI. It was struck off census on 12/9/67 & was not taken on census again.

Adam I'm afraid 05 BK 61 was not one of the pigs that was recovered for use in NI. It was struck off census on 12/9/67 & was not taken on census again.

Excellent, that clears a few things up, which also puts to rest why its in the condition it is, its just had a hard civvy life..... how do you know that it wasnt put back on census, where do you find that information out?

Adam, two archive sources. I'll PM you.

A Pig would not have been used in sand colours in South Armagh as it would have stood out too much. Similarly any vehicle involved in a fatality is not normally disposed of but is broken up and scrapped internally - this rule still applies.

As a kid I remember a fair number of sand coloured reverse flow Scaracens lined up on the "Boiler Hill" outside "The Mill" in Bessbrook when the units there changed but I don't know if they were used like that or were painted in the REME tent first.

Rob

On December 5th this patrol had carried out a routine VCP about one mile south of Newry, and was returning when, at the junction ofthe Dublin and Forkhill roads, it fell foul of a command detonated land mine sunk into a culvert.

 

The resultant explosion, later estimated at 500 lbs. strength, lifted the saracen well clear of the road, and dropped it firmly on its side some distance away.

 

The "Pig", following a short distance behind, was also caught by the blast, which ruptured its fuel tanks and disposed of one of the wheels. Miraculously no one was killed, though two members of the Saracen were serverely injured.

 

 

I know this is a revival of an old thread, but what I find absolutely jaw-dropping-incredible is that the Saracen's hull does not look deformed. If you look at the photo, the bottom of the hull is flat and would have caught the blast wave. The IED attacks in Afghanistan forced the Americans to re-engineer their armored vehicles to utilize V shape hulls. So I am puzzled, impressed and incredulous, all at once, how a Saracen had no penetration and only slight deformation of its flat bottomed hull. The only thing I can think of is that the bomb was buried to the side, in a culvert, and the slope of the culvert carried most of the blast energy along the bank of the culvert and over the Saracen.

It's an impressive tribute to the vehicle that it was still able to save lives of its occupants. I just find it amazing that everyone survived.

I know this is a revival of an old thread, but what I find absolutely jaw-dropping-incredible is that the Saracen's hull does not look deformed. If you look at the photo, the bottom of the hull is flat and would have caught the blast wave. The IED attacks in Afghanistan forced the Americans to re-engineer their armored vehicles to utilize V shape hulls. So I am puzzled, impressed and incredulous, all at once, how a Saracen had no penetration and only slight deformation of its flat bottomed hull. The only thing I can think of is that the bomb was buried to the side, in a culvert, and the slope of the culvert carried most of the blast energy along the bank of the culvert and over the Saracen.

It's an impressive tribute to the vehicle that it was still able to save lives of its occupants. I just find it amazing that everyone survived.

Not always the case sadly - in the 1981 Bessbrook attack 5 soldiers were killed by an IRA landmine under their Saracen. However, if you look around the web there are plenty of examples of Saladins in particular which have been mined, with only minor injuries for crews. If you look at the shape of the Saracen/ Saladin hull, whilst they are flat bottomed, they are at least fairly narrow, and with a bit of a v shape. Certainly much better than say CVRT which replaced them, and which have had to go through numerous uparmouring programmes due to casualties in Afghan. The Scout SV which the MoD have just ordered to replace CVRT is also flat-bottomed, but then at 40 tonnes it is presumably much more heavily armoured!