Objection to demolition of WW2 Pillbox

[Papav66]

I just received this email from the Pillbox Study Group

"Another planning application for the demolition of the Grade II Pillbox at Colekitchen Farm, Guildford has been received by Guildford Borough Council.

The Pillbox Study Group was paramount in getting it stopped last year and we all need to act again NOW if we are to stop this farmer succeeding this year.

You can view the planning application at:

http://www.guildford.gov.uk/acolnet

Put in the number: 08/P/01634

You must write another letter objecting to this NOW or it will be too late."

So if you also feel strongly in objecting then please send an email to

planningenquiries@guildford.gov.uk quoting the above number along with your objection.

[ford 369]

email sent

[Papav66]

Thanks, it just doesn't seem right to demolish it. So hopefully if many people send a short email they might just listen.

[44k6]

email sent, i know of a farmer near lewes, east sussex that has over 30 of them on his farm but he lives in harmony with them

regards

[Papav66]

Just a few more details to help you with deciding.
On the planning application there is a pdf file with a detailed drawing of the pillbox.

Then if you click on the multimap link below, the pillbox is in the bottom ride hand corner of the property next to the drive, literally above the word 'kitchen' of Colekitchen, with its roof covered in vegetation.

http://www.multimap.com/maps/?qs=GU5+9QB&countryCode=GB#map=51.22779,-0.44425|20|32&loc=GB:51.22441:-0.44431:16|GU5%209QB|GU5%209QB

[vulcan]

just done

[Adam Elsdon]

I just sent one asking why the council planners let the demolition of a WW2 pillbox even get as far as the planning consultation process, i should very much doubt they would even consider the levelling of an iron age burial mound or the remnants of a middle age fort, so why does this get treated differently, because its made of concrete and more recent history?

[00EC25]

e mail sent
thanks for posting this, that box is only 4 down from my "home" box.
there are a lot which have gone on that section of the Downs

[LeeEnfield]

Cheers for highlighting this,.........must admit to missing it in pillbox study notification email...:n00b:

Andy

[Adam Elsdon]

They can stick it in my back yard!:-D

[mikemids]

Letter sent, keep us posted as to how it goes?

[Papav66]

If you were thinking of objecting but not sure what to write then how about something along the lines of:

I wish to object to the proposal, on the grounds that this Pillbox is an important piece of history and serves as a reminder of British Land Defences constructed during the 1940's for WW2 and must be preserved for future generations.

It was sited there as its location was considered a strategic position to defend Colekitchen lane, which is now a public right of way.

Many pillboxes have already been demolished before their historical importance had been recognised so we must save the remaining few. Many were and are inaccessible on private farmland, but as this particular one is on a public right of way its one of the few that gives the general public the opportunity to walk past and view without intrusion.

This 2nd planning application proposes to demolish and merely mark its location. Removing the heritage of Colekitchen Lane is unacceptable.

Although marking the site, would show the original location, it would completely destroy the strategic setting. Future generations walking in the area, will not be able to see the strategic location from a outline plan in a garden, even if it that was visible at all from the lane.


If anyone else has other valid points then please post to help others.

I will also try and find out what type of design the pillbox is to see how rare that type is. In the mean time here's a pic & its certainly not an eyesore.

[catweazle]

Cant understand the mentality of these people,looks like nice place bags of room,they should remember the sacrifices made to allow them to live and obtain a nice place,and clean it up and be proud of it.

[Degsy]

Cant understand the mentality of these people,looks like nice place bags of room,they should remember the sacrifices made to allow them to live and obtain a nice place,and clean it up and be proud of it.


Spot on CW, if I lived near I'd be beating a path to their door to tell 'em just that only probably rather more strongly:argh:

[catweazle]

Spot on CW, if I lived near I'd be beating a path to their door to tell 'em just that only probably rather more strongly:argh:
I supose they may not be British:argh: but in my mind the councill should of protected all of these years ago.and the schools should of took the kids to see them,if we deny the kids history ,we condem them to make the same mistakes.

[00EC25]

the councill should of protected all of these years ago.

CW they have porotected this one - that's why it needs planning permission

It currently has grade 2 listed building status which does put a number of strong hurdles in the way

The acknowledgement to my letter says that if they get 10 objections it has to go before the full planning committee so could go either way once the politicians get involved


"If we receive 10 or more letters or email that disagree with the officer's recommendation, this application will be considered at Committee. I will notify you in due course of the Committee at which the application will be
considered and the procedure to be followed if you wish to speak at the meeting."

sadly its my neighbouring council so I won't have the added power of being a rate payer but I'll let you know what happens

[Papav66]

Posted elsewhere by LEI-12-HG

This is not 'just another pillbox'. It is important because it forms a surviving example of one of the defences of a nodal point defensive system, which in the case of Shere, comprised of 18 WW2 anti-invasion defensive features, including an anti-tank ditch, a rare concrete roadblock and a perimeter of pillboxes.

To find an intact, surviving example of a defended nodal point is rare indeed. Nodal points were points of defence, often called anti-tank islands. They were a conglomeration of defences to hold up an invading army. Few complete nodal points survive today.

The reason why this site is particularly important, is because this nodal point was on the GHQ Line – Britain’s very last line of defence to stop the invaders breaking inland. The Shere nodal point was particularly vital to the GHQ Line because of its location and is mentioned on page 73 of ‘Ironside’s Line: The General Headquarters Line 1940-1942’ by Colin Alexander, Historic Military Press (1998): ‘Particular attention was given to the defences closing Combe Lane, Colekitchen Lane and White Downs Lane. …the defenders were rewarded with excellent views across the A25…’

The latest thinking in academic archaeological circles is that although individual surviving examples of sites are important, groupings of defences within their historic environment, showing the context of how a system worked are even more important. See the latest book by the Council for British Archaeology ‘Beaches, Fields, Streets, and Hills: The Anti-Invasion Landscapes of England, 1940’ by Dr William Foot (2006)

This particular pillbox, a Type FW3/24, is listed on the Council for British Archaeology’s Defence of Britain online database at:

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/specColl/dob/ai_full_r.cfm?refno=10049&CFID=676627&CFTOKEN=78552193

It reveals that this pillbox was designed to give covering fire to a nearby anti-tank ditch.

It is clear that the applicants are only trying to have the pillbox demolished for personal aesthetic reasons, rather than it being an obstruction or detrimentally affecting the structure of their house.

So if you haven't objected yet, please consider doing so before its too late, cheers Paul

[catweazle]

Paul/John .many thanks for the updates.

[abn deuce]

A well written letter , I hope it will help given it has historicial records and facts to support it .

[Papav66]

Campaign appears to be going well with 94 objections & only 2 in favour, last day to register is tomorrow 3rd Oct then decision due on the 17th Oct.

[catweazle]

Campaign appears to be going well with 94 objections & only 2 in favour, last day to register is tomorrow 3rd Oct then decision due on the 17th Oct.
Lets hope common sense prevails ,everthing crossed.:sweat:

[Papav66]

Hurray, they have seen sense and taken note of our objections & refused permission. So for those who supported this, give yourself a pat on the back!

If you want to see the reasons then here is the link, its quite lengthy:
http://www.guildford.gov.uk/DLDC_Version_2/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeOfficerReport&TheSystemkey=101978

[steve ryan]

nice one,

[44k6]

great news, common sense prevails :clap:

regards

[catweazle]

great news, common sense prevails :clap:

regards
Ditto:)

[Snapper]

I read some of the judgment and it is all sound. It's just cultural vandalism. These people are just trying to make their lovely little middle class idylls perfect for parking their Range Rovers. They have no sense of history, only status and money.

MB

[catweazle]

I read some of the judgment and it is all sound. It's just cultural vandalism. These people are just trying to make their lovely little middle class idylls perfect for parking their Range Rovers. They have no sense of history, only status and money.

MB
Oy knock the people leave the range rovers out of it,you sound just like the papratzi,no i havnt spelt it wrong.Didnt you forget to call them gas guzzlers.:-D

[Richard Farrant]

Didnt you forget to call them gas guzzlers.:-D

or Chelsea tractors :-D


Check your PM's CW

[Snapper]

Oy knock the people leave the range rovers out of it,you sound just like the papratzi,no i havnt spelt it wrong.Didnt you forget to call them gas guzzlers.:-D

Ooooooooooooooooooooooohhh Ouch. Nuffink against Range Rovers my old mate - lovely things, especially the older ones with Marina door handles. Just SOME of the tossers who drive them around. Visit Leigh-On-Sea any Saturday - we play spot the drug dealer - especially the ones with ridiculous wheels. No room for my MUTT when they go cruisin for their lattés :-D

MB

[Tony B]

Just because Range Rover owners would think of MUTTS as a trolley! No need to get uppitty. Imagine living in Orpington after that Rav 4 advert!! :argh: (Just mind deep puddles this winter, Especially if there is a Range Rover behind you with room to overtake) The problem is you don't have room the garage for a Dodge.

[Snapper]

You're raving mad, but I like you.

Be brave, go by MUTT. Yeah! As said, nought wrong with Range Rovers, I'd have one. My beef is with your nouveau riche, guv'nor. I keep thinking of the way Citizen Smith would deal with them, but the actor probably drives a Chelsea tractor, too. Just me going all socialist like my dear old Dad. He drove a Honda 50. My genuine beef is with the vandals who would demolish our history for their vista. There's too much of it about - ironic considering we are at the time of year when we wear poppies to honour those who gave us the freedom to kill the ozone layer, squirrels, Ladas and other small animals while driving our 4x4s. All power to 4x4 owners...not pillbox vandals of any hue, class or inside leg.

MB

[Tony B]

So you'll be dishing out the cuatard creams to make amaends then? I'll bet the house owner didn't expect objections from all over the country. No doubt there will be an appeal but the statment of historic worth and totally contray to the county policy is pretty damming. :-D

[ford 369]

Hurray, they have seen sense and taken note of our objections & refused permission. So for those who supported this, give yourself a pat on the back!

If you want to see the reasons then here is the link, its quite lengthy:
http://www.guildford.gov.uk/DLDC_Version_2/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeOfficerReport&TheSystemkey=101978

well done everyone

[mikemids]

Hurray, they have seen sense and taken note of our objections & refused permission. So for those who supported this, give yourself a pat on the back!

If you want to see the reasons then here is the link, its quite lengthy:
http://www.guildford.gov.uk/DLDC_Version_2/acolnetcgi.gov?ACTION=UNWRAP&RIPNAME=Root.PgeOfficerReport&TheSystemkey=101978


Excellent news, well done Paul for posting it on here and bringing it to everyones attention....
i tried reading the reasons on the link, got about half way down and then slipped into a coma! do you think the person who wrote that actually made sense of it after??

[00EC25]

Its back on the agenda
the owner has been granted leave to appeal to the Secretary of State so we have to object again otherwise the rejection by Guildford Council will be overturned

Objections (in writing) must be made by 16th Jan 2009 to:
Planning Inspectorate
Room 3/21
Temple Quay House
2 The Square
Temple Quay
Bristol BS1 6PN

quote ref APP/Y3615/E/08/2089360/NWF

or via email to:
teamp13@pins.gsi.gov.uk

quote the same ref
your email address willl be made public unless you send your objections as a separate document attached to your email

or post your objection via the search facility on the PI website:
www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/casesearch.asp (http://www.pcs.planningportal.gov.uk/pcsportal/casesearch.asp)

[Simon Daymond]

doesn't it state at the bottom of the decision, that applications can be made to English Heritage to have pillboxes classed as 'listed'? Wouldn't that be a better longer term solution? Clearly the individual seeking demolition is just going to keep going at this.

[safariswing]

doesn't it state at the bottom of the decision, that applications can be made to English Heritage to have pillboxes classed as 'listed'? Wouldn't that be a better longer term solution? Clearly the individual seeking demolition is just going to keep going at this.

Here's how to go about listing http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1373

& Scheduled Monuments http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/server/show/nav.1369

[Simon Daymond]

Had a quick read through of some of the literature on the links, listing the building wouldn't automatically mean it was saved, however it would seem that by listing it, at any further planning applications, the building's importance etc would be noted, even if no-one was present to make the case for it, i.e. if the chap wanting to bulldoze it had a planning meeting whilst we were all up to our chins in W&P mud etc.

I'd make the application, but don't know enough about it to do proper justice, and making half a job would probably do more harm than good. Surely a collaboration could be submitted?

[Papav66]

PLEASE NOTE: If you made an objection originally, you do NOT have to resend it as the council forward all orginal appeals to the Planning Inspectorate so that they can make their decision.

If, however, you have an additional comment or didn't object before then now is the time.

[Tony B]

Objection posted today.

[00EC25]

PLEASE NOTE: If you made an objection originally, you do NOT have to resend it as the council forward all orginal appeals to the Planning Inspectorate so that they can make their decision.

If, however, you have an additional comment or didn't object before then now is the time.

Thanks for the info, the letter I got from the Council informing me of the referral did not say that

[Papav66]

On receipt of the letter I did call and they confirmed that all previous letters would be reviewed and that they will update us by letter.

[ajmac]

We are lucky that permission was applied for... quite a few local listed building (Victorian) were refused PP for demolition so the owners simply put the windows through and removed the roof... then 10 years later oh gosh they had to be pulled down for safty reasons!!
One local chap had the oldest remaining wall (originally part of a blacksmiths) in the village, not much but from the 17th Century, it was in the newspapers that he wanted to remove it to make room for his Caravan. All applications were refused...so what did he do... get a JCB and knock it down on a Sunday Afternoon while no one was looking! I think he had a fine, it was all in the local paper, but when you drive past now, no wall and one big caravan :nono:

[catweazle]

Do we know what the final outcome on the pill box is.?

[Papav66]

Its still at the appeal stage which can take months, so I've sent an email asking for an up date & will post here if any news.

[catweazle]

Its still at the appeal stage which can take months, so I've sent an email asking for an up date & will post here if any news.
Cheers lets hope it goes our way.:-D