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Foden and Bio Diesel


barrynevuk

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Does anyone on here know wether the Rolls Royce Eagle engines are able to run on bio diesel? I know nothing about Bio Diesel and haven't got a clue.

I believe that diesel contains a percentage of bio in now, is or would it be possible to mix in a greater percenrage?

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Depends what you mean by Bio Fuel ... depends on how much ... B10 =10% or if you are going to B100 = 100% (most pump derv now contains around 10% bio )

All diesels will run on bio fuel however the fuel its self can cause issues -

All modern engines will run 100% bio with no problem - However oil change intervals are halved compared to running "normal" derv

On old diesel engines many of the rubber seals used in the fuel system will be destroyed by the bio fuel - solution would be to replace them with modern seals that can cope - however its costly and requires stripping the entire fuel system.

If you have a tank sealer inside your tank the bio will strip it and cause blockages in the fuel system - not to mention letting the tank leak

Bio will clean any old deposits from inside your tank and lines- if you go to over 50% bio then expect to change your fuel filters several times before all the crud is flushed out

Bio fuel is hydroscopic - it absorbes water from the enviroment - its storage life is much less than good old diesel , in a truck used occasionaly I think you would have problems with water in the fuel and bug growth if the tank was not treated and the vehicle laid up over winter.

Bio fuel quality is very variable - buy only from a trusted and reputable supplier.

 

However -

Many many people are running diesels on a home made brew of oils and derv or 100% veg oil with only a little trouble and few mods - older inline injection pumps are supposed to be best , rotary pumps from the 90's can cope but the more modern electronic rotary pumps are not all that happy on bio , modern common rail systems are able in most cases to cope without problems with pump bio but don't cope with "chip oil" as well .

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Depends what you mean by Bio Fuel ... depends on how much ... B10 =10% or if you are going to B100 = 100% (most pump derv now contains around 10% bio )

All diesels will run on bio fuel however the fuel its self can cause issues -

All modern engines will run 100% bio with no problem - However oil change intervals are halved compared to running "normal" derv

On old diesel engines many of the rubber seals used in the fuel system will be destroyed by the bio fuel - solution would be to replace them with modern seals that can cope - however its costly and requires stripping the entire fuel system.

If you have a tank sealer inside your tank the bio will strip it and cause blockages in the fuel system - not to mention letting the tank leak

Bio will clean any old deposits from inside your tank and lines- if you go to over 50% bio then expect to change your fuel filters several times before all the crud is flushed out

Bio fuel is hydroscopic - it absorbes water from the enviroment - its storage life is much less than good old diesel , in a truck used occasionaly I think you would have problems with water in the fuel and bug growth if the tank was not treated and the vehicle laid up over winter.

Bio fuel quality is very variable - buy only from a trusted and reputable supplier.

 

However -

Many many people are running diesels on a home made brew of oils and derv or 100% veg oil with only a little trouble and few mods - older inline injection pumps are supposed to be best , rotary pumps from the 90's can cope but the more modern electronic rotary pumps are not all that happy on bio , modern common rail systems are able in most cases to cope without problems with pump bio but don't cope with "chip oil" as well .

 

I have a friend who makes Bio Diesel machines he runs 100% Bio in the summer and 50% Bio & 50 % pump diesel in the cold weather, he seems to be regularly changing his fuel filters something like every four months or so.

 

If you use new vegetable oil straight from the can or the supermarket shelf tax is due to customs and exercise. One of my friends customers was using 50% new vegetable oil and 50% Bio, C & E fined him and I presume had his van off him as well just to top if his good day.

 

Tax wise you can make 2500 litres for you're own personnel use but you must keep records. Don't be tempted to sell it to friends if you make a batch thats poor quality only you suffer make it for a friend it buggers up his engine you're liable and if C&E finds out you're liable for a nice fine plus the missing duty.

 

Making Bio Diesel involves the use of water, methanol and caustic soda at its most basic level.

 

If you're making Bio yourself you end up having used vegetable oil stacked up around the back yard / garage. Not the most pleasant smell plus you have the waste products to remove as well. The glycerol caustic soda mix can be made into soap and I believe a handy brick for the barbecue if mixed with sawdust.

 

Vegetable oil isn't all the same liquid either some vegetable oils have different points at which they will be either liquid or set to a jelly like consistency and be unusable in the making of Bio Diesel. Knowing which oil is useable and which isn't takes experience and collecting from fast food outlets that don't tend to cook burgers and the like in the oil, animal fats can not be broken down in the process to make bio diesel.

 

Thankfully I have no where to store used oil I might have been tempted to do it myself.

 

Lastly the collection of waste oil requires that you have a waste oil collection licence at £150 for three years.

 

I'm know expert on Bio Diesel I don't make it myself but I do tend to listen and take on board the reasons why I don't fancy trying it myself. I would have been really keen if the Ferret could use it really really keen

Edited by ferrettkitt
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I dont know about bio desiel sold through pumps on the high street but i had a mate who had a escort van 1600 derv engine in it he bought it at 5 years old and i know for a fact that over the next 7 years till it was scrapped because of body rot it never had a drop of derv put in it. To start with he used to buy what ever cooking oil was cheapest at his local morrisons wheel it out of the shop in a trolley and pour it into his van this stopped when the manager banned him for leaving the MTS in the trolly. After this he bought in bulk 25 litre cans from a local refinery in hull what ever was the cheapest date nut rapeseed palm whatever this lasted for a couple of years and the manager of the plant got windy because no tax was been paid. By this time he had a source of used cooking oil were he was paid 5p a litre to take it away in bulk. All he did with this was rig up a crude filter using some tights and some 45 gallon drums. He then started putting a new fuel filter on the first Sunday of every month to "get rid of batter and crumbs". When scrapped he sold it to a local farmer who put the engine in a low ground pressure frazer Buggy and is still running. When scrapped it had over 200,000 on the clock and apart from timing belt was never touched. Dont want to get into debate over the legallity of it all just stating the facts.

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I dont know about bio desiel sold through pumps on the high street but i had a mate who had a escort van 1600 derv engine in it he bought it at 5 years old and i know for a fact that over the next 7 years till it was scrapped because of body rot it never had a drop of derv put in it. To start with he used to buy what ever cooking oil was cheapest at his local morrisons wheel it out of the shop in a trolley and pour it into his van this stopped when the manager banned him for leaving the MTS in the trolly. After this he bought in bulk 25 litre cans from a local refinery in hull what ever was the cheapest date nut rapeseed palm whatever this lasted for a couple of years and the manager of the plant got windy because no tax was been paid. By this time he had a source of used cooking oil were he was paid 5p a litre to take it away in bulk. All he did with this was rig up a crude filter using some tights and some 45 gallon drums. He then started putting a new fuel filter on the first Sunday of every month to "get rid of batter and crumbs". When scrapped he sold it to a local farmer who put the engine in a low ground pressure frazer Buggy and is still running. When scrapped it had over 200,000 on the clock and apart from timing belt was never touched. Dont want to get into debate over the legallity of it all just stating the facts.

 

Good for him the government has enough tax of us as it is.

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Thers a good deal of info on bio on Difflock fourm if i remember you are alowed 2500 L befor needing to pay duty ,if also covers new veg oil bio diesel and yoused oils .I have run 50/50 veg /diesel with on problems just filter changes at more frequent intavals ,but a £4 filter for a £10 or more saving on a 80L tank makes cence .

Edited by mogmaner
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So from these posts it looks like we could run the foden lmlc with the RR Eagle 220 engine with a greater percentage of biodesiel in the fuel mix, up to a total of 50%.

 

If we do this we should consider regular filter changes, and towards the end of the season, with the vehicle standing more we should reduce the bio desiel percentage to as little as possible.

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You really need to find out what seals have been used on the fuel side of things, if its the wrong type you can't use bio full stop.

 

If you have the right seals 100% bio will work just fine 50/50 is just for the winter due to fuel waxing.

 

I can't remember the name of the seal material at the moment that can be used with bio (it begins with the letter V)

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Viton is as stated the best material for fuel system seals when running bio, given the age of you engine its unlikely the fuel system has viton seals.

 

The best way to manage the Foden would be to reduce the bio content to 0 well before you stop using the vehicle and run it for a good few miles on pure derv , drain and change the engine oil before laying it up for the winter and for good measure ensur the tank is brim full.

Running any vehicle on bio requires a good deal more effort in managing the fuel , its storage and servicing of the oil and fuel system's.

 

All the above is best practice - you could do as many do and ignore most of the above and not have any problems.

For me personaly I would never run my Landcruiser on bio ... the potential cost of an FIP rebuild let alone an engine rebuild simply makes it not worth the risk ... not to mention an engine oil change and filter every 2500 miles .

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.....For me personaly I would never run my Landcruiser on bio ... the potential cost of an FIP rebuild let alone an engine rebuild simply makes it not worth the risk ... not to mention an engine oil change and filter every 2500 miles .

 

And if it happened to be one still under warranty you'd find using anything over 10% bio could invalidate any warranty claim (Denso injection equipment) :shocked:

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Went to Brazil a couple of years ago to Manus its in the the heart of the Amazonian rainforest 500 miles from road network city of 1 million people local trucks are all at least 20 year old . Told fuel is all locally produced from vegetable matter. is this what we call bio desiel i dont know???

DSCF1108.jpg

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What i am getting at is every body gets on with it using sugar cane based petrol and vegetable oil for derv nobody seems to worry about this type of seal or that they certainly have a better deal on fuel than we do and on the wages they are paid the economy would grind to a stop if they paid our prices. Top of my head i think fuel was around 28 cents(euro) per US gallon in manus dearer in the rest of Brazil

Edited by cosrec
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And if it happened to be one still under warranty you'd find using anything over 10% bio could invalidate any warranty claim (Denso injection equipment) :shocked:

 

Some may call me a sceptic but if Denso and Bosch place such restrictions on bio and these are on many vehicles that were designed with running bio in mind then no way am I putting it in any vehicle that is much older than that.

Most of the vehicles I deal with as a factory engineer are cleared to run on B100 but the "get out of jail" clauses in the warranty have to be seen to be believed and in anything less than a perfect world make using it not worth the trouble .

At least a 10% drop in power and increased fuel consumption are some of the lesser published facts about bio.

 

It seems to me bio fuels are like all "alternative" fuel source's - simply put in place to meet the green requirements coming from europe and govenment .

 

How can a large diesel engine running on bio be better for anyone when as a result it uses more fuel to do the same job ... more importantly requires twice as many oil changes of non bio engine oil ( 20 liters + a time ) and the associated fuel and oil filters all made from non green products , produces 10% less power before you also loose more power through EGR that then requires more fuel to recover the lost power and torque ? ;)

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Manus is a free port area of Brazil and as such there is some wealth there many brand new mercs and other posh new cars there but they dont take fossil fuels against the flow 750 miles up the Amazon there so i guess they must stand the warranty out of there own pockets. Sony and other electrical goods manufacturers pay good money for their employees so that must be how it works. The average truck driver has no knowledge of this and fills up with veg oil and carries on

Edited by cosrec
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Round about the early ninetys i Did a lot of work on hull docks moving vehicles these where EX US milatry and had been sold at a Letts Bros sale in Rotterdam they were going to Leversly int maybe if i remember right M62 cargo trucks built in the 50s all Nato reserve on the dash board was a selector switch where you selected which fuel you were running on eg derv petrol kerosene palm oil ground nut etc

Edited by cosrec
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Just to clarify a few things to do with biodiesel. I've done a lot of work over the last few years looking at the effect of biodiesel on the fuel injection equipment on truck engines. The company I work for is one of the largest makers of heavy duty fuel injection systems.

 

Most modern engines do not like 100% bio-diesel. Manufacturers will say that they warranty for B100 based on the odds that they won't have many back. Denso, Bosch & Delphi do not warranty for B100 for lots of good reasons!

 

The biggest single reason is that B100 is completely undefined. It can be made from almost anything - rapeseed oil, chicken fat, stalks of plants, chip fat, algae etc...... Makes it very difficult for manufacturers to say yes you can use it!

 

Biodiesel of all forms is more agressive on seals and the metal components. It has far lower lubricity than diesel and it is also organic so storage can cause lots of issues.

 

As said earlier on this thread if you need to lay a vehicle up that has been running on biodiesel then you need to run a tank of diesel through to clean out the system before laying it up. If you don't you can find the injectors and pumps going rusty!

 

All that in mind older engines in particular will run on bio-diesel. Best thing is to start off with a small percentage and build up. Also try and use the same source for bio-diesel.

 

HTH

Ed

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An interesting and useful discussion. There seem to be two sets of problems/issues here -

 

1) USE IN ENGINES 2) BULK STORAGE OF FUEL (either in vehicle tank or in bulk tank)

 

If you run through a tank of diesel before laying up you have then reduced whatever % biofuel mix you were running on down to anything up to 15% biofuel mix, - which is what low sulphur diesel can be now - which might still be likely to cause storage problems??

 

Draining the fuel system on every vehicle which needs to be parked up for a long period of time is going to be a pretty frustrating exercise.

 

There are plenty of farmers and plant operators out there who are going to have serious diesel bulk storage problems, regardless of older tractors /engines leaking dieel out of old type seal systems.

 

It would seem that conflicting advice is being given by fuel suppliers concerning how to store fuel. The best suggestion being to make sure additives are used (not just to minimise problems in common rail engines but also to help minimise tank storage issues).

 

Interestingly these bulk storage issues don't affect farmers in mainland Europe, where they mostly fill up from garages with white diesel and then claim back the rebate (for red useage) (it would seem that in the not too distant future it is planned to do away with any form of rebated fuel for farming use so costs will escalate). Here in Blighty of course we have to store red seperately ourselves, with all the issues that is now going to bring.

 

Low-sulphur diesel - anyone wondering where all the sulphur has disappeared to? OK some of the reduction is from mixing biocrap in, but I would imagine what is happening is that the grade of diesel has been modified during the refining process causing the sulphur content of heavier oil grades to increase - so it is still going to be burned isn't it?

 

No, the powers that be really haven't thought this through. In an ideal world we'd probably just get away with it, but in reality I suspect there wil be untold problems. Be prepared for a multitude of trucks to start breaking down on the road system, and for plenty of crops to be ruined by combines lurching to a halt at the wrong moment.

 

I really do despair - we don't even seem capable of saving ourselves at the moment, let alone the planet.

 

Me? I'm still at the headless chicken phase of wondering how on earth I will cope with storage of the new diesel and infrequent use of several red diesel-powered machines, and I need to decide quick as the tank is getting low.

 

:angry :banghead: :goodidea: :nut: :banana:

Edited by N.O.S.
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This may have some bearing on this discution ,my farther was a tanker driver he told me that in the late 60s they changed the cetain rating of diesel by increasing the amount of sulfer alowed in the fuel ,this may have had somthing to do with lubrication of the new rotary pump coming into genral youse.If you add the avalable bug traatments to your fuel it should rejouse problems as i belive they contain inhibiters to protect the pump .

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I've just been talking with a local farmer who was told by his fuel supplier that biofuel hasn't been added to any low sulphur diesel yet - not sure I'd believe that!! - and that he'd costed additives out at around 4p per litre of fuel. That is not cheap. He has a full tank of old style diesel in his combine so doesn't need to decide what to do until afer harvest.

 

Sorry for straying away from the main subject of the thread, but it does illustrate what a dog's dinner it all is :D Dish of the day at the clubhouse canteen is Winalot and Mash.

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