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View Full Version : Pre 1960 vehicles,,,who can drive it



paulob1
17-03-2010, 14:26
My M62 is arriving in three hours, it was made in 1953...can my son with his B-licence drive it...it seems to say yes in the DVLA notes but they are not at all simple and the british language can be very ambiguos if not done carefully and to me it snt clear....anyone know what the situation is for real..

my son is 17 and has his B licence, can he drive my 1953 truck...

Marmite!!
17-03-2010, 15:10
It's unlikely any of the MV insurers will cover him, most only cover over 21's

antarmike
17-03-2010, 16:54
Provided the truck is being used unladen, and is not towing a laden trailer, then the driver does not need to hold an HGV licence, so only considering the licencing aspect, yes he can drive it.

Tony B
17-03-2010, 17:41
It's unlikely any of the MV insurers will cover him, most only cover over 21's

Had this problem with Number One Son. 21 is the minimum age most insures will consider for an MV. And minimum one year driving!

ian2b
17-03-2010, 19:44
Provided the truck is being used unladen, and is not towing a laden trailer, then the driver does not need to hold an HGV licence, so only considering the licencing aspect, yes he can drive it.

Mike, Is this valid with new drivers that have passed there test after 1995-6 (can't remember the exact date) as I thought they could only drive upto 3500kg

antarmike
17-03-2010, 22:05
Mike, Is this valid with new drivers that have passed there test after 1995-6 (can't remember the exact date) as I thought they could only drive upto 3500kg

You do not need an HGV to drive a pre 1960 HGV used unladen and not towing a laden trailer. You can drive them on ANY car licence, whenever your test was passed. It matters not that you have a 3500kg limit on a new licence, because there was a 7.5 Tonnes limit on the old style car licence and that was not enough either to drive an HGV without this exemption. Old style test and licence only allows you to drive what are now called Medium Sized goods vehicles, ie one whose maximum gross weight exceeds 3500 Kgs but does not exceed 7500 Kgs.

The rule says if it is a pre 1960 LGV used unladen , and not towing a Laden Trailer you don't need an LGV Licence.

ian2b
18-03-2010, 00:15
You do not need an HGV to drive a pre 1960 HGV used unladen and not towing a laden trailer. You can drive them on ANY car licence, whenever your test was passed. It matters not that you have a 3500kg limit on a new licence, because there was a 7.5 Tonnes limit on the old style car licence and that was not enough either to drive an HGV without this exemption.

The rule says if it is a pre 1960 LGV used unladen , and not towing a Laden Trailer you don't need an LGV Licence.


Thanks for the info Mike

goldfinger
20-03-2010, 17:17
The only insurer for under 21 s is Footman James but be ready to get the sales person to check as they always say no. I have insured my 19 year old son on 3 trucks and it cost just under 800. I checked with the DVLA and you have to be 18 to drive a truck under the pre 1960 rule, I have this in writing to show the Police if he gets pulled up.

Topdog
20-03-2010, 18:17
The date for new licences issued covering only B + B1 ie no grandfathers rights is 01/01/97

antarmike
20-03-2010, 18:58
The date for new licences issued covering only B + B1 ie no grandfathers rights is 01/01/97

What do you mean by grandfathers rights? I do not understand your point. The exemption that allows driving of pre 1960 HGV's without HGV licence is open to everyone.

Big ray
22-03-2010, 13:17
Mike, Is this valid with new drivers that have passed there test after 1995-6 (can't remember the exact date) as I thought they could only drive upto 3500kg

You are correct on that point...... 3.5 tonnes, you now have to be tested for up to 7.5 tonnes.:cool2:

antarmike
22-03-2010, 17:17
You are correct on that point...... 3.5 tonnes, you now have to be tested for up to 7.5 tonnes.:cool2:
All this quoting backwards and forwards is getting confusing, here is the situation,
You can only drive up to 3.5 tonnes on a new style licence car licence, you need a seperate test to drive a modern goods vehicle up to 7500Kgs, but you can drive any pre 1960 HGV, used unladen, on the 3.5 Tonne car licence, without going for the 7.5 tonne test.

Grumpy
31-03-2010, 13:24
All this quoting backwards and forwards is getting confusing, here is the situation,
You can only drive up to 3.5 tonnes on a new style licence car licence, you need a seperate test to drive a modern goods vehicle up to 7500Kgs, but you can drive any pre 1960 HGV, used unladen, on the 3.5 Tonne car licence, without going for the 7.5 tonne test.

Just to add to what Mike said, you also must be aged 21 or over and held a Full B licence for at least two years

skeggy
05-05-2010, 17:04
These are the exemption's regarding Pre 1960 Vehicle's, And the Age limit's (scroll down)

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022499

Hope this help's.

Cheer's Skeggy.

N.O.S.
05-05-2010, 17:16
Now that's what I call a very sensible and helpful post - a link to the actual official site, rather than making 'statemnts of knowledge' which, however well-meant, might have to be treated with some caution until verified.

Perhaps if we all did this whenever possible with issues concerning regulations and legislation, it might help to avoid some of the 'problems' which seem to arise whenever these topics are discussed on here :thumbsup:

Jack, buy this chap a drink!!

BrettMRC
25-01-2011, 22:49
Hi,

Sorry to bring this thread back from the dead, but I'm hoping to clarify a few points?

Full UK Licence obtained after 1997 means I can drive a pre-1960 historic vehicle upto 7.5ton..

However the regs concerning specific categories of vehicle are confusing me (not hard!) - if the vehicle is a recovery truck, is this limit waived? (For example, could I drive a Matador recovery variant?)

No doubt these questions have been done to death in the past, but I'm not great with forum search tools :nut:

Thanks in advance :D

croc
25-01-2011, 23:47
If you have a full "B" licence, whenever you passed your test, you can drive pre 1960 vehicles over 3.5 tonnes used unladen., not drawing a trailer.
The minimum age restrictions are 18 for 3.5 tonnes to 7.5 tonnes and 21 for over 7.5 tonnes.

rob8066
26-01-2011, 07:25
Hi Guys.

Not an expert here, but you could always phone up & ask your local road traffic policing unit.

I've had to do it a few times for clarification on laws for writing policies for my work.

I know, I lead an exiting life!

They are helpful & if they don't know they'll phone you back with an answer later on.

croc
26-01-2011, 09:34
Now that's what I call a very sensible and helpful post - a link to the actual official site, rather than making 'statemnts of knowledge' which, however well-meant, might have to be treated with some caution until verified.

However, even on that link the info may not be quite right, it states "goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer" this implies that you may pull an unladen trailer, I am not sure that you can, as I have also seen the exemption writen as "unladen vehicle manufactured before 1.1.60 not drawing a trailer" (traffic officers companion 12th edition) Mike?



Perhaps if we all did this whenever possible with issues concerning regulations and legislation, it might help to avoid some of the 'problems' which seem to arise whenever these topics are discussed on here :thumbsup:


That is why Lee has been busy adding things to the "reference documents" section.

antarmike
26-01-2011, 12:15
However, even on that link the info may not be quite right, it states "goods vehicles manufactured before 1 January 1960, used unladen and not drawing a laden trailer" this implies that you may pull an unladen trailer, I am not sure that you can, as I have also seen the exemption writen as "unladen vehicle manufactured before 1.1.60 not drawing a trailer" (traffic officers companion 12th edition) Mike?



That is why Lee has been busy adding things to the "reference documents" section.

You may draw an unladen trailer behind a pre 1960 HGV without HGV licence (depending on your age). You will need an HGV licence to tow a laden trailer behind any HGV irrespective of age of vehicle.

croc
26-01-2011, 12:29
You may draw an unladen trailer behind a pre 1960 HGV without HGV licence (depending on your age). You will need an HGV licence to tow a laden trailer behind any HGV irrespective of age of vehicle.

Thanks Mike, I have seen it writen both ways and had gone with the "not drawing a trailer" version.

antarmike
26-01-2011, 12:34
I'll repeat the link already up on this topic.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022499
See section "Exempted large goods vehicles"
bullet point 11
or http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/regulation/51/made where see S51 (l)

antarmike
26-01-2011, 12:46
Hi Guys.

Not an expert here, but you could always phone up & ask your local road traffic policing unit.

I've had to do it a few times for clarification on laws for writing policies for my work.

I know, I lead an exiting life!

They are helpful & if they don't know they'll phone you back with an answer later on.

You could do, and they may, or may not, give you the right answer, or you could believe the link to Direct.gov, which is plain and easy to understand, and is the correct information.

It depends how complicated you want to make you life....and whether you want to introduce the possibilities that many Traffic Officers only know the straightforward bits of legislation, and make up or guess the more obscure pieces of legislation.

croc
26-01-2011, 13:01
I'll repeat the link already up on this topic.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/DriverLicensing/WhatCanYouDriveAndYourObligations/DG_4022499
See section "Exempted large goods vehicles"
bullet point 11

I will have to assume that the definition (exempted goods vehicles (S51)) as writen in my copy of T.O.C. is incorrect, is it different in both your copies Mike? I keep thinking that I should get a newer edition but am waiting for the plating and testing regulations exemptions changes to be included.

antarmike
26-01-2011, 17:48
I will have to assume that the definition (exempted goods vehicles (S51)) as writen in my copy of T.O.C. is incorrect, is it different in both your copies Mike? I keep thinking that I should get a newer edition but am waiting for the plating and testing regulations exemptions changes to be included.
The same error is repeated in the 17th Edition of Traffic Officers Handbook. (which is why I say don't bother asking Police for advice because half the time they simply don't know, and when they don't they may reach for the T.O.C. from the glove box and clearly if this is their handy guide, they will get it wrong too!)
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2864/regulation/51/made See section 51 (l) for quote direct from Driver licensing regulations 1999

I have had Traffic Police ignorant of how many trailers a Heavy Loco can tow, What length such a combination can be. I have had a Traffic Copper tell me that I can't travel with passengers in a "living van type" trailer, having four or more wheels, not be close coupled. I have had a traffic Copper telling me a wide, STGO trailer dating from the fifties "must have a ministry plate" and a "plating Certificate".

Frankly the Average copper is competant to book a car driver for speeding, but beyond that, it is rare to find one who knows the law inside out!.

croc
27-01-2011, 00:11
Thanks Mike.
Would this be a good time to review the definition of laden/unladen? :readpaper::readbook::banghead:

antarmike
27-01-2011, 12:14
Thanks Mike.
Would this be a good time to review the definition of laden/unladen? :readpaper::readbook::banghead:

can I share your wall? :banghead:

Grumpy
27-01-2011, 17:44
Thanks Mike.
Would this be a good time to review the definition of laden/unladen? :readpaper::readbook::banghead:

Simple, laden = tyres flat at the bottom :nut:

R Cubed
27-01-2011, 18:03
You may draw an unladen trailer behind a pre 1960 HGV without HGV licence (depending on your age). You will need an HGV licence to tow a laden trailer behind any HGV irrespective of age of vehicle.

So if you had a pre 1960 HGV you don't need an HGV license but is there a weight limit on this or could you drive ... say an Antar :nut:

antarmike
27-01-2011, 18:16
So if you had a pre 1960 HGV you don't need an HGV license but is there a weight limit on this or could you drive ... say an Antar :nut:

Yes, although my Antar was 1961, not pre 1960. (although some would argue that Antar being a locomotive, and authorised only under STGO it may not be an HGV.

Interestingly historically Motor Tractors, Light and Heavy locomotives never used to need an HGV licence to drive them, even when towing laden trailers.

The position with these vehicle classes is not clear under present scheme, (well it's not clear to me anyway.)

william.cotty
27-01-2011, 18:37
so if its a army vehicle registred as agricultural on the log book can it be driven at 16 years of age ? thanks

antarmike
27-01-2011, 18:54
so if its a army vehicle registred as agricultural on the log book can it be driven at 16 years of age ? thanks

No.

A motor tractor is designed for road use and is not the same as Agricultural tractor, which is designed primarily for Off Road use, on agricultural land.

Agricultural registered vehicles must be constructed or adapted for off road use, primarily, for the purposes of Agriculture, Horticulture or Fisheries.

An Agricultural vehicle has to have is primarily use off road, on agricultural land. If such use is not the greatest part of the use of the vehicle, it is not Agricultural.

Having Agricultural on the log book does not make it agricultural, Its use in agriculture makes it Agricultural, and unless it is being used for these purposes its registration in that class is an error, and any privileges or perks associated with that class cannot be used. Having a vehicle registered in the wrong taxation class is also an offence.

And Agric motor vehicle is different from Agric Tractor.

Should an Army truck be registered Agric, it would be as Agric Motor vehicle, not as Agric Tractor.

Rules for Agric Tractor are Minimum age to be able to drive any Agricultural tractor is 17.

Certain Agric Tractor can be driven at 16 but only if under 2.45m Wide, and then can only tow one trailer also under 2.45m wide, but only if it has only two wheels or is four wheeled, close coupled trailer.

If the driver of an Agric Tractor does not hold a full licence, they can drive un-accompanied only if a single seat is provided. If the Tractor has two seats, the learner must be accompanied by a full licence holder.

I can see nothing to indicate a 16 or a 17 year old can drive an Agricultural Motor vehicle.

Big ray
02-08-2011, 19:35
Thank you gentlemen, you have clarified several points on which I was not very clear. Wonderful thread, keep up the good work.

Minesweeper
10-08-2011, 15:56
This subject has been covered pretty well - except - as far as I can see for the over 70's!

When you become 70, certain legal regulations kick in as to what ordinary commercial vehicles you can drive - by weight limitation. I understand that if you have a medical examination and the Doctor says that you are still fit then you can carry on driving the vehicles that you have always driven.

I have not had such an examination - but does that restriction apply to pre-1960 preserved vehicles of perhaps maximum 5 tons unladen weight - or would I have to go through all that rigmarole?

Tony

ferrettkitt
10-08-2011, 16:34
Hi Tony,

Why not ring the DVLA and ask them they will give you the correct information. That is presuming that you speak to someone who knows what they are talking about.

Big ray
10-08-2011, 16:38
This subject has been covered pretty - except - as far as I can see for the over 70's!

When you become 70, certain legal regulations kick in as to what ordinary commercial vehicles you can drive - by weight limitation. I understand that if you have a medical examination and the Doctor says that you are still fit then you can carry on driving the vehicles that you have always driven.

I have not had such an examination - but does that restriction apply to pre-1960 preserved vehicles of perhaps maximum 5 tons unladen weight - or would I have to go through all that rigmarole?

Tony

I think that its correct to say that people who have passed their car test since 1997 and are restricted to 3.5 tonnes with commercial vehicles can drive a pre 1960 historic (unladen) vehicle. I can not find anything in the DVLA regs that say that once you have reached 70 years of age (I am 74) and you have your entitlement reduced to 3.5 tonnes you can no longer drive a pre 1960 historic vehicle, I believe that we have the same entitlement that the post 1997 driver as................ now I am going to lie down.

scott9643
10-08-2011, 21:11
Would this be a good time to review the definition of laden/unladen? :readpaper::readbook::banghead:

Good idea! Is the definition for commercial goods carried for hire or reward?

Is a caravan a laden trailer if it contains your personal clothing/bedding/food etc.

Taking it one stage further -- is a four wheeled office type steered trailer that has been converted to a caravan laden or unladen? :mad: